Author Topic: Is Obasanjo Biased Against Islam?  (Read 23453 times)

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Offline lionger

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Is Obasanjo Biased Against Islam?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2004, 10:37:23 PM »
You said..
Quote
All the hues and cry that past muslim leaders had segregated xtians in their appointments was just a blatant and shameless misinformation from a bunch of 'educated illiterates" .The facts are there to verify or otherwise.

 
and then you turn around and say

Quote
The focus of all patriotic and peace loving Nigerian is to put all hands on deck, to see to the progress of our dear country...Therefore, name callings should not serve any purpose.President Obasanjo had set a dangerous precedent.


Practise what you preach mr man! Funny enough in your tirade against mallamt's very valid point IMO u certainly cancelled out much of the patriotic points you made. I ain't no yoruba but the Afenifere are as much 'thugs' as the Arewa or any other ethnocentrist political strongholds in the country!

Denying history or simply refusing to learn the lessons from it is no way to help Nigeria progress. Some of the problems we have seen under our 'return to democracy' is in some ways a backlash from years of discriminatory military rule, and while OBJ has been a disaster some of us shout to the high heavens as if Nigeria was flushing meadows b4 may 1999. Of course OBJ's appointments have been lopsided, but please lets not start wailing as if this is a new thing.  It is NOT a precedent; it has been happening under previous muslim governments. I know from personal experience that this discrimination certainly existed in the foreign affairs ministry. Naturally i'm not surprised that no-one here will step up and admit it, however we shouldn't try and hoodwink others with patriotic talk.  Rather, just step up and state the obvious: we want our turn! I've said it b4, this 'na my turn' attitude is the scourge of our nascent democracy. It doesn't mean the present arrangement is acceptable, far from it. But it does give IMO a complete explanation as to 'why' it is there.

So if we want to solve this problem then read the last paragraph of mallamt's latest post. However if u still want to argue about relative religious fairplay under 'muslim' governance then please replace your blunt dismissal of his opinion with hard answers to the question he asked EMTL, which, I have noticed, nobody bothered to reply.

And by the way, welcome to kano-online  :P  
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Offline alhaji_aminu

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Is Obasanjo Biased Against Islam?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2004, 11:28:53 PM »
salam
Khalil I guess you are right that my presumption of OBJ being a born again influences his decisions, as C-in-C, is kind of a misleading.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Off topic.

Just read today in the papers that the corrupt ministers in the $214 million scam have been released and re-arrested? What is going on here. Isnt there the double jeopardy statute in Nigeria's judiciary?
Nigeria................ na wa wo!







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Offline mallamt

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Is Obasanjo Biased Against Islam?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2004, 12:42:42 PM »
Quote from: "EMTL"

 Adviser_Name/ Adviser_Position/
 
Southerners/Christians
 
 1.  Obong Ufot Ekaete-  Secretary to Government of the Federation
 2 Prince Olusola Akanmode- Deputy Chief of Staff, VP
 3 Ambassador A.O. Esan- Deputy Chief of Staff,President
 60...............
 
 Notherners/Muslims
 
 1 Gen. Aliyu Gusau rtd- NSA
 2.-Maj.Gen. Abdulahi Muhammed rtd- Chief Of Staff.
 3. Alhaji Yayale Ahmed- Head of Service of the Federation
 (9)...........
 
Where is the Federal Character!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I had another look at EMTL's posting of appointees in OBJ's government with reference to the faith of the various appointees.  A disturbing image that appears is the headings

The first heading is Southerners/Christians.  The second list is of Northerners/Muslims.

This is a very clear indication of the indoctrination some of our people get in their faiths.  firstly there is an assumption that only southerners are christians or else you would not have the Southern/Christain heading secondly a position is being put forward here that if you are a northerner and christain then you are not a northerner but a southerner.  in other words you can not be from the north and a christian!!  The discussion all along has been on christain and muslim appointees in OBJ's cabinet, howeevr EMTL has added a new dimension on who can be a christain and who can be a muslim based on geographical regions.  If EMTL had wanted to discuss only based on Christain and Muslim appointees in the cabinet he would not have added the Northern and Southern tag along with religious faiths.  This is abit worrying and I hope that through the interaction in this forum that norther forumites who are muslims take the opportunity to educate others that there are northerners who are christains even from states like kano, sokoto, bauchi, maiduguri etc such discussion may make us see the humans in ourselves and make us question why we even bother to slaughter each other.

Offline _Waziri_

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Is Obasanjo Biased Against Islam?
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2004, 03:10:46 PM »
Salam All,

Mallamt, it appears like you are saying the lopsidedness in appointments has always been happening? I think this a mere presumption at whatever scale unless if we have some evidence to prove it. I am pretty sure if there were anything of that nature in the recent past of our history, we would have had records on newspapers where CAN gloated over it.

Though I find it easy to agree with you when you said:

Quote from: "mallamt"

Let us concentrate on OBJ's performance and the performance of his cabinet or appointees one thing I am very sure of is whether he has more muslims than christains or more christains that muslim or even a 50-50 situation if he is a hopeless leader he will remain so!


I believe you will also agree with me that when a kind of lopsidedness as seen in OBJ's cabinet continues, it has a tendency of making our motherland ungovernable. For while very few can understand and tolerate a majority made Muslim/Christian cabinet, the majority of our populace will prefer to retire into the cocoon of religion and ethinic affiliation. As such, it is better we have a 50-50 cabinet and manage our bad leadership around than to have a lopsidedness that will make the bad leadership worst.

Waziri

Offline Indabawa

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NACOMYO Vs OBJ
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2004, 06:39:22 PM »
...Lionger,it seems you totally misunderstood my points.What i had insinuated, was that, fact should be a fact.Issues should be viewed and analysed dispassionately.

What i meant by stating that OBJ, had set a "dangerous precedent" is that President Obasanjo, is suppossed to be operating under the absolute guidance of the constitution of the Federal Republic.Has he ever proved to be all that subservient in his actions, under our "nascent" democracy?

Moreover,have we ever witnessed a more flagrant and insensitive display of pathological disdain to a particular set of populace,simply for the need to decapitate them politically?

Injustice is injustice,period!

What we are essentialy saying is that NACOMYO had done no wrong in dragging OBJ to court.

Those who felt that past leaders had also abused their office by lopsided appointments may have took a stand on the issue during the contentious period.In addition,people should take note that the past leaders, save for one, had operated a non democratic governance.

Therefore,our watch word should be how would we help to promote good governance under a virile democratic clime?It does not matter who is at the helm.I also quite agree that it does not matter what religion a leader professes, as per as he would positively improve the welfare of the generality of Nigerians.

Meanwhile,thanks for the wellcome.
e who kneels to Allah can stand up to anything.

Offline Dave_McEwan_Hill

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Intolerance confusing the real problem
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2004, 12:30:07 AM »
This topic is developing with great interest. I am glad that many forumites now agree that religious intolerance has obscured the real problem -which is that of bad government, which has little to do with the religion of those governing. Governing is mainly to do with ability, good intentions, justice, intelligence and honesty.
It is not wise for a President to appoint mainly co-religionists to power in a society with deep religious division. The fact that it happened in Moslems favour in the past does not justify it happening in Christians' favour today. If Nigeria is ever to be rid of the religious tension which causes bad trouble from time to time a line has to be drawn on the past and a fresh beginning made. (As they did so well in South Africa under Nelson Mandela).
It will take a leader of real stature to be able to do this and to be able to put together a Government while resisting the temptation to fill it with friends, co-religionists and tribesmen. Nigeria is waiting for such a  man.
In the meantime more should be expected of your religious leaders who do not seem to have the courage to point the finger at corrupt leaders and dishonest politicians.
Dave McEwan Hill
maigemu

Offline mallamt

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Is Obasanjo Biased Against Islam?
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2004, 09:43:31 PM »
Quote from: "Khalil"
Salam All,

Mallamt, it appears like you are saying the lopsidedness in appointments has always been happening? I think this a mere presumption at whatever scale unless if we have some evidence to prove it. I am pretty sure if there were anything of that nature in the recent past of our history, we would have had records on newspapers where CAN gloated over it.


This is precisely part of the problem, you are trying to imply that the fact that CAN never said anything then there was no problem or lopsided appointments never happened.  You are in denial to even suggest that there may have not been lopsided appointments of muslims in past governments I shall leave you with that task if you sincerely want to find out you will reasearch the issue that is from 1960 - 1999 in each government the distribution of appointments on the basis of religion.

You must note that never in the history of nigeria have muslims had the freedom to design and implement sharia law like they have under OBJ's govt, which you are accussing of being too christian.  What is it exactly that this govt or its appointees done to hinder the development or growth of islam?  How have the rights of muslims been infringed upon since 1999.  Surely you would understand why the federal character is there, that is the only way that it can be ensured that all regions (or states) in nigeria participate in the running of the federal republic of nigeria, which is a right every region (or state) has.  So what muslim rights are being infringed on?  By the way what about the other religions why are you silent about them?  Is it because they are quite?  Do we want them to start attacking and killing christians and muslims before we know they also want appointments to represent them?  Or are we waiting for them to take muslims and christians to court?  Please let us be real and stop shadow chasing!!

It is a pity that your veiw is that religion must be used as a basis of making appointments in nigeria.  I suppose this is the very dangerous path that nigeria is proceeding on that is making everyone edgy.  You seem to be unable to reconcile yourself with the concept of nigeria as a nation were everyone is equal, therefore you want us to further emphasize our difference by bringing in religion when making appointments.  I am one of those very against the soveriegn national conference some people call for in nigeria, yet when I read postings such as yours I wonder whether those calling for the SNC are not right.

Apart from the constant uproar or acquisations that OBJ's appointments have been lopsided not you or anyone has said how that is affecting his performance (having more christains than muslims), have you ever considered that the only reason CAN never made noise previously was because they knew and understood the fact that lopsided appointments will never mean a government will have a good performance?  And in the same way I am sure you have not heard CAN clamouring for more christain appointees in the papers when OBJ came to power or have you? (to use your style - prove it)

What will make our country ungovernable is you and I not able to measure our leaders on the basis of their performance but instead bring in issues such as religion.  As Dave made reference to South Africa and people like Mandela, what has made the country such a "miracle" was the ability of the people who were treated lower than the earth to rise above all that and say to their former oppressors let us work together and build a strong and properous country based on mutual respect.  This did not mean there was no pain and suffering on the ground that could have been hijacked and used to make the country ungovernable -there was, but there was also a few people including leadership which spearheaded the healing and reorientation of the people.  This is what we have to do we can not just say the country would be ungovernable the likes of you, I and other nigerians must find a way of making sure we rise above our differences that continually divide us and cause heartaces, loss of life and property such as religious sentiments.  The only thing that would make nigeria ungovernable is if you, I and a great majority of nigerians are incapable of rising above our differences.

So instead of talking about how many christains or muslims appointees there are let us talk about whether the appointees are doing what they should be doing and we should rise and work collectively and refuse to be divided but agree to mutual respect for each other and demand a proper and just leadership that can lead us to properity.

Offline _Waziri_

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Is Obasanjo Biased Against Islam?
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2004, 05:30:33 PM »
Mallamt,

Yes, actually there was not any lopsidedness in appointments in the past administrations. Remember, in intellectual discourses we are suppose to accompany our submissions with some factual evidence. It is not my responsibility to go and verify your claim for you. It is your soul responsibility to do it yourself. In a situation where you cannot then we say you have no argument at all. This is the tradition.

But I think Mr. david has capped everything up.

I remain most grateful

Offline mallamt

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Is Obasanjo Biased Against Islam?
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2004, 08:15:31 PM »
Khalil

I suppose it is all too easy to just say prove it.  Seeing that you do agree with David is atleast one step.  I have not claimed or even suggested that lopsided appointments may not be taking place now nor do I try to justify their happening. You see the  for any meaningful discussion to take place, there has to be an aknowledgement that lopsided appointments in favour of muslims did take place in previous govt.  You can not just want to wipe out the past as if it did not happen if any thing the past should determine what we do today about the future.  It is this blatant denial of the past that is removing any basis of discussions.  Even in the south african case they did not wake up to say let us foget the past and discuss the future, there had to be an acknowledgement that what had happened was wrong and had to come to an end and the end was discussed and negotiated on the basis that the past must not repeat itself with the reverse.  Now we are refusing to agree that anything like lopsided appontments happened in the past and we are asking for proof! what planet have you been living on?! please all I am saying is that we should be honest with ourselves, if we ask for proof as we are doing it now even when confronted with it we would not agree.  Do you know how federal character and the like came to be made a part of our constitution?

Offline lionger

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Is Obasanjo Biased Against Islam?
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2004, 09:48:24 PM »
lol Waziri

always asking for proof of the sun's existence, just that that other time when u asked me to prove that most post-WWII wars were not anti-islamic! oya, y don't you prove that past muslim govts were religiously unbiased instead? surely that is your responsibility, shebi dis na 'intellectual discussion'  :lol:  :lol: ??

Offline EMTL

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Is Obasanjo Biased Against Islam?
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2004, 09:54:38 AM »
Quote from: "lionger"
lol Waziri

always asking for proof of the sun's existence, just that that other time when u asked me to prove that most post-WWII wars were not anti-islamic! oya, y don't you prove that past muslim govts were religiously unbiased instead? surely that is your responsibility, shebi dis na 'intellectual discussion'  :lol:  :lol: ??


The fact is even if there have some similarities in lopsided appointments with past Governments, tha fact is we didnt elect the IBB and Abacha Governments, OBJ was elected, at least in 1999, and he wnet round the country and campaigend. He told us that he knew the problem of Nigeria and is detrmine to curb corruption and injustuce, bla-bla-bla, but it is unfortunate that a man who claim to be patriotic and came to change the country for the better is doing worst than any of our past leaders.

He is setting dangerous precedents, such as;
1. Introducing Ghana-Must-Go, politics, cash and carry,
2. religious/tribal politics,
3. killed political opponents and we call it armed robbery
4. won questionable elections and we call it landslide victory.
5. destroyed the Judiciary and we advise our political opponents to have faith in the election tribunals.
6.manipulated INEC and call it free and fair elections.
7. bribed the electorate and we call it 'carry go'.
8. Top Government officials have bought over all our Government-owned companies and we call it privitisation

WHO OWNS OANDO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!No be OBJ......Allah ya isa!!!!!!!!!!
9. created artificial fuel scarcity inorder to raise the prices of petroleum products and call it commercialization.
10. raised the prices of petroleum products several times without justification and call it deregulation.
11. Look at the way they are  establishing companies abroad and bringing them into the country to win all the big contracts , is this foreign invetment?.
12. Top Government officials have established refineries abroad where they refine our crude oil and bring it back to sell to us and call it 'offshore operations'.
13. abandoned our country and spent a total of two out of four years in foreign countries and call it diplomatic shuttling.
14. Armed our youths (Area Boys, Torah, OPC,...) to attack our opponents and call them local militia.
15. turned our youths into well-armed political thugs and call it cultism.
16. turned ICPC against our opponents and call it 'pursuing corruption'.
17. opponents cry but obJ call it destabilization.
18. out-rigged opponents reject election results BUT obJ call it threat to democracy and national security.
19. destroyed our institutions of higher learning and THAT call it university autonomy.
20. steal money and save it in foreign banks and we call it offshore banking.

21. OBJ sold Nigeria and pocketed the money and call that vision 2010.

22. Their sons and daughters are major importers and exportets of petroleum products.

IS OBJ THE WORST THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENNED TO NIGERIA????. Those who support or depend the devil are evil themselves. One day they will visit their graves and see the result the attrocities they have committed, untill they repent and do good they will one day regret their actions.
In the Affairs of People Fear Allah (SWT). In the Matters Relating to Allah (SWT) Do not be Afraid of Anybody. Ibn Katthab (RA).

Offline _Waziri_

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Is Obasanjo Biased Against Islam?
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2004, 11:45:20 AM »
Quote from: "lionger"
lol Waziri

always asking for proof of the sun's existence, just that that other time when u asked me to prove that most post-WWII wars were not anti-islamic! oya, y don't you prove that past muslim govts were religiously unbiased instead? surely that is your responsibility, shebi dis na 'intellectual discussion'  :lol:  :lol: ??


That is just that Lionger,

Mine is that of a knowledge seeker. I expect you to prove what you say first before you put it to me to believe. You cannot expect me to prove you wrong until you attempt proving something.

If you should just make a sweeping statement, like a propagandist, who says the bigger the lie the more it will be believed, without giving it any substance of intellectual discourse.  How sure am I that if I attempt giving it intellectual flavour it will make sense to you. So I say you first give yours that flavour first before I come up with mine. Simple.

Offline mallamt

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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2004, 09:07:06 PM »
Quote from: "Khalil"
Mine is that of a knowledge seeker. I expect you to prove what you say first before you put it to me to believe. You cannot expect me to prove you wrong until you attempt proving something.


Quote
Yes, actually there was not any lopsidedness in appointments in the past administrations. Remember, in intellectual discourses we are suppose to accompany our submissions with some factual evidence. It is not my responsibility to go and verify your claim for you. It is your soul responsibility to do it yourself. In a situation where you cannot then we say you have no argument at all. This is the tradition.



Khalil

I am sure you are an intelligent person who should know that having an intelligent discussion does not have to be about only proving something but can also be about disproving something.  Fact as you would know can be subjective, it all depends on the lense through which we look at the data. You can set out to disprove any "fact" or perceptions an individual or group may have if you have evidence to disprove their position.  So please do not try to present a situation that there has to be "facts" which you agree with before you go about disproving them.  Even if a position is based on a perception you can disprove it because that perception is the holders fact except if you can disprove it!!  Now coming back to the discussion it is a known fact (to use your terminology) that there has been a perception of lopsided appointments by previous govts before this govt and it appears you do not agree with this position can you then disprove this position or perception please?  May be we can have an intelligent discussion as you have suggested.[/quote]

Offline alhaji_aminu

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Is Obasanjo Biased Against Islam?
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2004, 09:18:34 PM »
Salam
I think enough has been said about this 'matta'. It is true that OBJ's appointees are mainly christian. But, It cannot be shown that their been  christians is responsible for (mis) managing this nation.
It is my view that when it comes to wrecking this country, there really isnt any difference between the muslim and christian military-political elites.
Allah help us all!

Offline mallamt

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« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2004, 09:36:58 PM »
EMTL

most of what you have said is true and reading through it you can just see almost all the leaderships nigeria has had.  One intresting thing is that it appears the only areas nigeria may have recorded improvements between a present govt and an immediate past one is in most of the areas you have listed in other words things get worse.

I must however highlight to you that the vision 2010 was a brain child of the Abacha govt and not OBJ (see 21).  I have gone through the document and must say it is a beautifully compiled document that if implemented well would have turned nigeria around.  But I suppose since it was put together under Abacha we are dismissing it, alot of things proposed in the document are today under this govt begining to be implemented however they are not being implemented properly or as recommended.

Whether a govt was elected or came to power through the barrel of a gun, it has a responsibility to the citizenry of nigeria.  So it does not matter how a govt came to power if we agree a thing is wrong then it is wrong, let us not even start with a concept of different punishments for the same crime.  The moment we do not have this basic and common position then everyone or govt would have an excuse for misruling nigeria.

OBJ has done a bad job in nigeria I believe there is clear evidence to that today, after spending several millions of $ in NEPA there is still no light, look at the riots and the life and propety they have claimed after five years they are still as rampant and no one is arrested or punished for them.  Then the corruption the violent armed roberry, one is not saying that these things should have disappeared completely within 4 years of this govt but that fact that nothing is done about them, they have not been stabalised or reduced is a clear indication that OBJ is an incapable leader

 


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