Wow! What a time to come back here!

Jack Fulcher · February 10, 2006, 06:05:12 AM

I am so happy to see such a vibrant board, and I am very pleased to see that most of my friends are still posting here, and some new and interesting ones have joined. I have stayed away much too long, but I have my reasons. I hope you will forgive me.

I posted here in the 2002-2003 time period, but my job transferred me temporarily so that I could not drop in at Kanoonline conveniently. I stayed away for so long the computer no longer recognized me. :oops:

I went to Mexico City and a couple of other Mexican cities to help with establishing some field offices, but I?m back in San Francisco and hope to stay for awhile.

I see that the topics are still fresh and contentious, even though some of the discussions haven?t changed much. For instance, we have the calm and articulate Lionger, the wordy but interesting Mr. Waziri, and Dave from Scotland with the European perspective. Another thing that apparently hasn't changed is the touchy reaction to some controversial discussions by the Administration. When I first started posting here, I was writing about the unfortunate Amina Lawal, that woman who was under sentence of death by stoning because she bore a baby out of wedlock and had the gall to insist that the father contribute to the care of the child. She was subsequently convicted of adultry and sentenced to death, while the man was released because he denied being the father, and Sharia law does not recognize forensic medicine as admissable in the legal system.

Well, I got angry about this (as did a lot of people), and I started to post here. I immediately got a note from Admin saying to watch what I say. This surprised me, since I assumed the purpose of the board was to provide the members a free speech forum, and one of the by-products of free speech is that some people get offended sometimes. That's OK, however, since it also gets people thinking and stirred up, and things start to change and improve. That's a good thing unless you're one of those people who don't like to change, who are annoyed when people make them think, or think that the world is just fine the way it is. I assume that no one who posts here is that sort of person.

So I get back in town, fire up the computer, and log into this great forum to see what my friends are up to. I hope I am not too forward to call you friends; we have had many interesting discussions a few years ago, and you have taught me much about Nigeria (a country I hope to visit some day), and you have also taught me much about Islam.

Maybe the timing was bad, but the hot topic on the board for the past day or two has been the cartoons about Mohammed printed in some European papers. However, instead of being able to post to the thread, I find that Admin has closed it. In fact, there were two threads on the subject. Admin closed one, saying that the posts should go on the other thread. Then Admin closed that one too, saying that we should talk about this "elsewhere," but not specifying exactly where. This is chilling, isn't it? I wonder if Admin will step in and close down this thread, too.

Anyway, just as my opening gambit, I'd just like to ask this question: If you spend your day throwing rocks at the Danish embassy over a cartoon, shouldn't you examine your priorities? If you get yourself killed in a riot rather than spend time with your family, are you proud of your choice? Let's hope Admin allows this thread to stay open long enough to have some interesting dialogue on this issue.

It's good to be back. Peace. Jack Fulcher

Dave_McEwan_Hill · February 10, 2006, 08:55:18 PM

Nice to see you back, Jack. I thought you'd gone off in the huff because of the huge opposition being expressed in this forum to America's wicked and very, very stupid invasion of Iraq.

I regret that admin has closed down the discussion on the Danish cartoons
The truth is sometimes hard to swallow but supressing discussion is never right (unless perhaps someone is being deliberately offensive without good reason).

The violent and mindless behaviour of some crazed zealots in many parts of the world has done more harm to Islam than any "cartoons" could ever do.
Some people should think on that.

sammy · February 10, 2006, 09:12:49 PM

What I alsways find interesting is how these rioters always readily find American Flags to burn.

Lol! Even Denmark that has not been on the bad side of Islam in the longest time was no spared. Within a very short time, so much Danish flag became available for burning. Question, do these Islamic societies all have textile or flag making companies that make flags for the purpose of burning during protests?

Jack Fulcher · February 11, 2006, 12:49:59 AM

Hi Dave. Hope all is well with you. No, I didn't leave in a huff - I left in a hurry because the guy who was supposed to do the job I ended up doing took another job at the last minute. What a mess. My poor boss was in a bind, and I've always wanted to see Mexico, and my wife was up for a change, so off we went.

I don't get upset when people insult the US, because the big guy tends to step on a lot of feet. (Something like that...) After living in Mexico, it's clear to me that, no matter what we do, people want to move to America to work and live. We make a lot of decisions about the world, because we're the largest economy and I guess we just can. Maybe someday China will be the big dog, and everyone will have something nasty to say about them. But people are dying to get into the country, literally, and we do, after all, produce much of what the world consumes. We take some unpopular positions, but we also get things done. For example, the internet you're looking at would not exist without our military (I was one of the early users of the DARPA net system in the mid-70s)(God! I'm old!). I had nothing to do with building it, just using it.

Anyway, I think I said at the time that Iraq wasn't high on my list of countries I would want to attack, if I felt we had to attack anyone. But now that we're there, maybe we can do some good for the people there who want a stable democracy. We can't turn back the clock, so let's see if they can build some institutions that will support democratic change there.

However, I'm with Sammy - who stockpiles all these flags just in case they want to burn them??? I wouldn't even know where to go to find a flag of another country. I'm sure there are flag stores, and maybe I could find them in the Yellow Pages (commercial phone listings in the US), but if Kenya, say, declared war on us this afternoon, I wouldn't know where to get one of their flags even if I wanted to burn one.

As for Admin's suggestion that there's some plot afoot, that all these riots are really not the fault of the Muslims who are participating in them, I'd just point out that the Muslim clerics who first appealed to the Danish paper, and then to the Danish government, to suppress these cartoons, are the people who sent them around to various newspapers and institutions in the Muslim world when their appeals were rejected. If they hadn't done this, it's likely that few would have known about them. So if there has been some sort of conspiracy, it's likely that the Muslim clerics were the conspirators. However, I don't really think there has been any conspiracy - just an overreaction by people just itching for a fight (very much like Bush was when he wanted to invade Iraq in 2002 - nothing Saddam said made him happy).

Glad to hear from you, Dave.

Jack Fulcher · February 11, 2006, 02:41:32 AM

One more thing...the reason I believe that these cartoons would not have had the reaction they have had if the Muslim clerics hadn't sent them around to so many countries is that in 2003 a cartoonist for a Tallahasee, Florida, newspaper, Doug Marlette, created a cartoon that made fun of the "What would Jesus drive?" bumper stickers that were starting to appear. The issue was, given the environmental impacts of large SUV vehicles, wouldn't Jesus drive a smaller car if he were here today? This was just some sort of movement to make SUV and large car drivers feel ashamed for not driving a smaller car.

Well, Marlette did a cartoon entitled "What would Mohammed drive?" I'm embarrassed to say that this was a drawing of the Prophet driving a Ryder rental truck with a bomb sticking out of the back. (Remember that Tim McVeigh drove a Ryder truck when he blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City in the mid-90s.) However, this drawing wasn't sent around to Muslim newspapers, no one threw rocks at the American Embassies over this, and no one boycotted Florida orange juice over this. Big difference, huh? I'd argue that both cartoons are equally offensive and in bad taste. I think that the present situation is an example of manipulation by a few extremists, in case you care what I think.

Have a nice weekend, folks. Monday is our celebration of Abraham Lincoln's birthday, so I get the day off. I'll need it. Jack

Yoruba Land · February 12, 2006, 04:09:58 PM

QuoteThose 12 Offensive Cartoons-Caricatures of Islam?s Prophet Muhamad (PBUH)

By

Paul States
I. Adujie

Lawcareer@msn.com

New York, United

What if I was a Muslim? Would I, have like this idiotic portrayal of Islam?s Prophet Muhamad? But of course not! So, why is such portrayal acceptable to some?

In my opinion, that is all the questions that the journalists at Denmark?s Jyllands-Posten and their sympathizers all over Europe needs to answer or resolve.

How would they feel, if their holy of holies is desecrated and demeaned?

It will be recalled that Denmark?s Jyllands-Posten in September 2005 published their silly series of cartoons which portrayed or depicted Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) as if with a turban, but grenade like turban, with a lighted fuse.

In essence, it suggested that the prophet was a violent symbol or an explosive representative of Islam and by extrapolation, Islam itself is violent.

Expectedly, adherents of the Islamic faith, took strong exception to these calculated affront committed by these journalists in the name of press freedom. But press freedom must be exercised with a great sense of responsibility.

And media freedoms cannot be limitless or irresponsibly exercised.

How would Christians appreciate the portrayal of the Christian Cross and Jesus Christ if depicted and portrayed, in such depraved and violent manner? How would the Christians feel if the Cross on Christ?s shoulders is cartooned-caricatured to look like a shoulder-fired surface-to-air-missile (SAM)? Or Stinger Missile similar to the ones given to the Mujaheedeen by the CIA before Afghanistan morphed into the hands of Taliban?

And would the Jews not rightly call anyone anti Semitic if such non-Jew was caught depicting the Star of David as weapon or tool of violence?

Why does the world, particularly, Europe expect a different sorts of reactions by adherents of the Islamic faith?

The enthusiasms with which other European newspapers and publications embraced the denigration of Prophet Muhammad and the spiraling willingness to engage in these disparagements of the symbol of Islam is, to say the least, disturbing; It creates and reinforces the impression that there is an orchestrated war against Islam by America and Europe. Particularly since September 11, 2001, the appearance has been created and nurtured, to the effect that the so-called war against terrorism is actually a war against Islam. Contest between religions, Christian and Islamic civilizations.

It is therefore safe to say that this latest siege and unified attack from the European Press against Islam, is merely a continuation of a clash of cultures of Christianity and Islam.

Christianity postures as the superior culture, the superior religion and the superior civilization. And to that extent, it does appear, as if, there are repeated attempts to humble and defeat Islam through the contests of civilizations in wars, in portrayals and even the ridiculing of Islamic symbols as was engaged in by Denmark?s Jyllands-Posten and its copy-cats sympathizers all over Europe ballyhooed last week.

And of course, we are to pretend and feign surprise when our Muslims brethrens react to lampooning of their holies? Some prefer to believe that Muslims are just being unreasonable! That is not so. Muslims are merely resisting unwarranted attacks.

Here in the US, I have witnessed protests and picketing of movies and theater plays that are satirical of Christianity or Jesus Christ, notably, Jesus Christ Super Star.

And more recently, Mel Gibson was criticized by some Christians but more severely by Jews because of his movie ?Passion of the Christ? Mel Gibson had to engage in repeated explanations and at some point his movie was edited to assuage the feelings of his critics. Where was press freedom and artistic freedom as defense or superior argument when Mel Gibson was severally severely mauled by the critics?

Why is everyone now suddenly hiding under freedom of expression and press freedom as the excuse for tolerating and perpetuating what is clearly an inappropriate portrayal of Prophet Muhammad and Islam, with the subliminal auto suggestion, that Islam, its prophet and symbols are interchangeable with war, violence and terrorism in the same sentence? Why the linkage of Islam, its prophet with violence or tools of war, grenade?

Whatever happened to the Christian admonition of Do Unto Others as you would have them do unto you? I thought true Christian values requires that Christians have, and demonstrate respect and tolerance toward the holies of all others? Or is it The Inquisition all over again?

But why is it, that when it comes to Muslims, we pretend, that their feelings do not matter or that the rest of us are not obliged to respect their feelings and religious sensibilities? And when Muslim therefore reacts to these shortsighted policies, we are shocked and dismayed? Or conclude that Muslims are just unreasonable?

Why can?t Christians and Jews demonstrate the same respect and care, when handling Islam and Muslims? holies? Why can?t Christians and Jews simply put themselves in the proverbial shoes of Islam and Muslims as it were?

Christian Conservatives also known as the Evangelicals the US, currently drive and propel public policies in America foreign and domestic policies that is, however, same Christians Conservatives, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Ralph Reed etc who are excited agog at their policies successes at home and abroad, but are loathe to have Islamic influenced public policies in Palestine, Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan! But why is this fair?

Why is it okay for Pat Robertson to issue Christian fatwa against President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, but somehow, it is not acceptable for religious clerics in Iran, Afghanistan or Iraq to issue Islamic fatwa against a person or persons who affront their religion?

I personally abhor violence, but if force be the measure of strength and if might be deemed right, who is to determine who gets nuclear weapons power and who is to determine the superiority between Evangelical Christian propelled fatwa and its Islamic version?

I was raised as a Christian of the Catholic faith, even though I am now semi-retired Catholic, I would not intentionally or deliberately disrespect what the Catholics hold dear; Similarly, I would expect all of us, in the finest Christian tradition to show and demonstrate respect towards other peoples holies. Long Live Islam!

sammy · February 12, 2006, 07:33:15 PM

YorubaLand,
Thanks for publishing Paul Aduje's thoughts. The issue here however is still regarding the cartoons and the reaction of Muslims. I said previously in an article that most muslims are not very rational people. I again reaffirm that point of view. I also express the view that Muslims are terrified of Christianity, and I find this rather confusing.

Has anyone ever noticed that when Islam comes under attack for any reason whatsoever, Muslims in their defensive posture always find a way to drag christianity into the issue. In this situation for instance, one Danish tabloid (the paper never published its religious affiliation) published cartoons of Mohammed, and aside from the flag burning and embassy destruction, in their twisted minds, they want to lay a portion of the blame on Christianity, and I find this absurd.

So YoubaLand what exactly is the point of copying and posting Paul Aduje's article here? I would understand if a Christian Magazine had drawn the cartoons. I would understand if a Christian group had posted that cartoon on its websites and mocked the prophet. And then there is the stupid question of what Jesus would have done?

The appropriate question should be what did Jesus do when he was criticised and ridiculed?

What do Christians do when hollywood makes movies portaying Christ in very negative light? Do they kill anyone? Do they burn any country's embassies? Do they threaten anyone's life? Do they threaten the life of the actors and producers of the movie? Most importantly, do they blame Islam and Muslims?

If you can answer these questions and not evade them, then you may get the point.

Dave_McEwan_Hill · February 12, 2006, 08:54:08 PM

Well said, Sammy. The publishing of these cartoons had nothing to do with Christians as such, they were carried in no newspapers in Britain or most of Europe and the reaction to them by a number of idiots rampaging around in European cities did more harm to Islam than the cartoons could ever do.
As they were not published in London why were mobs of fools marching about in London demanding the killing of those responsible for the cartoons?
They are very fortunate they were not arrested as incitement to violence is a crime in UK. That they were not arrested is a testament to the tolerance of the government and the people of UK.
We have a saying in Scotland "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me." Substitute "cartoons" for "words".
I have seen dramas and read stories which caricature Jesus and God, are aware of plays performed on stage that portray Jesus as a rampant and promiscuous homosexualist and have seen many cartoons of Jesus and God.
I find these things distasteful but I have intention of attempting to force my opinion of them on anybody else.
I suspect that mature and sensible Moslems have behaved with similar restraint over these offensive cartoons.

admin · February 12, 2006, 09:43:48 PM

If the discussion goes along this line, I will have no choice but to Close and then Delete all postings and other threads regarding this subject matter.

Compassionate Dictatorship!

mallamt · February 12, 2006, 10:15:44 PM

Admin

why are you threatening us like this? you probably will want to consider closing this site!!! please read what people are saying about the subject matter and if in your own opinion the matter should not be discussed put it to forumnites to vote or if the tone and or structure is not acceptable lay out specific guidelines to discuss the issue, I can assure most forumnites will comply and if one does not he will be reprimanded and if it continues it will be understood when you close the thread and I am sure it no one will be interested in revisiting the issue

sammy · February 13, 2006, 03:17:21 AM

Admin, I am really getting tired of your boring threats. You are doing the exact thing the Mullahs and Imams have been trying to do but have not and will never succeed in doing. You cannot censure or silence expressed opinion especially when it is presented with common sense.

What exactly is wrong with this discussion? We have asked very fair questions and I suspect those on the opposite side have a hard time responding to them. Are you trying to bails someone out ?

If you have something to contribute, simply do so, and quit threatening to shut down the discussion. We are not done. I am just warming up. I am asking you nicely not to interfare with this tread. If you do, then you are no different from the Taliban.

Jack Fulcher · February 13, 2006, 10:33:10 PM

Thomas Jefferson said "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty," which I firmly believe. Consider the present situation in the U.S. where the president had declared that he can wiretap any conversation without getting an order of the court, as long as it has something to do with the war on terrorism. Many of his own party have broken with him over this issue, deciding to remain vigilant in defense of our basic liberties. He will lose this fight, eventually.

The current controversy on this board is a very small version of this same battle. I am not quite sure what Mr. Admin refers to as discussion "along these lines," unless what he is saying is "if you continue to disagree with my personal opinion, or the opinion of my bosses, I will close the topic and delete all threads, as though you had never expressed your opinion in the first place." I find this a very disturbing thing to say, for several reasons:

First, while some of the opinions expressed here are strident, they are for the most part expressed with intelligence and respect for the opinions of others. What more can you ask from the posters?

Second, I have seen some upsetting, unpleasant, and generally insulting posts here, and nothing was ever done about them. I posted here in 2002-2003 and saw several calls to "jihad" (the violent version) by someone using the name al-Hamsa. Can it be that since al-Hamsa expressed an anti-Western bias, rather than an anti-Muslim bias, the Admin decided to allow his rhetoric?

Third, in the U.S. we are taught from early childhood that free speech must be repected, even if it may be a bitter pill sometimes. I had no problem with al-Hamsa insulting me, Dave, and even your countryman lionger, since he has the right to express his opinion, as do we all. I cannot see how the benefits of free speech can be attained under the iron fist of a "compasionate dictator." Mr. Admin must be aware of studies of how people are most likely to change their opinions when they are exposed to all arguments - that they tend to "tune out" the incessant drumbeat of lecture after lecture of only one point of view. This is the true value of a great forum such as this.

Fourth, free speech is a relatively new development in civilization, but I claim that its use has been very successful. I agree that it is painful to hear an opposing viewpoint (imagine how we in the West feel when we are called the "Great Satan" by some in the Muslim world. Probably the same as being called the "Axis of Evil" by our cowboy pres!). However, the purpose of such speech is to remove people from their comfort zones and encourage them to think about their positions. Often it simply serves to reinforce their stands, but at least they are thinking about things they would likely never think about otherwise. In the U.S. free speech has lead to changes unseen in more traditional cultures, both in social institutions and in science. I claim that, on balance, this has been good for all.

Fifth, where is Mr. Waziri in all this? I would think he would be a strong defended of the free speech model, as he is the board's prime speechifier. And how do the other members of the board think about this issue?

Today is our celebration of Abraham Lincoln's birthday. He is the president credited with freeing the slaves in my country. He was a strong supporter of free speech and expression, and I hope we can all be worthy of the example he set during his life.

Peace. Jack

mlbash · February 15, 2006, 06:12:10 PM

WOW WOW WOW! WHAT I'M I MISSING HERE? MALLAMT, MR. ADMIN HAS EVERY RIGHT TO REGULATE AND SUPERVISE WHAT GOES ON IN THIS FORUM. THEREFORE WHERE THERE IS LITTLE UNDERSTANDING ON THE PART OF THE DISCUSSANTS, THEN I THINK THE BEST THING IS TO CLOSE DOWN THE TOPIC. I HAVE ALOT TO SAY BUT HIS ACTION SEEM THE BEST WHICH I ACCEPT RELIGIOUSLY!

NOW MR. JACK I WELCOME YOU BACK AND HOPE YOU'LL GIVE YOUR BEST IN THIS FORUM. MR. DAVE, SAMMY AND YOU JACK, PLEASE FORGIVE MY INTRUSION HERE BUT WHAT I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT ISLAM UNLIKE CHRISTIANITY HAS IT'S NORMS AND VALUES, PLEASE YOU SHOLD LEARN TO RESPECT THIS VALUES BEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND ISLAM, AND THEN COME TO SAY SOMETHING REGARDING IT.

I HOPE WE'LL UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER PEACEFULLY AND MATURELY.
THANKS ALOT EXPECT TO HEAR FROM YOU GUYS.

lionger · February 15, 2006, 07:28:09 PM

QuoteWOW WOW WOW! WHAT I'M I MISSING HERE? MALLAMT, MR. ADMIN HAS EVERY RIGHT TO REGULATE AND SUPERVISE WHAT GOES ON IN THIS FORUM. THEREFORE WHERE THERE IS LITTLE UNDERSTANDING ON THE PART OF THE DISCUSSANTS, THEN I THINK THE BEST THING IS TO CLOSE DOWN THE TOPIC. I HAVE ALOT TO SAY BUT HIS ACTION SEEM THE BEST WHICH I ACCEPT RELIGIOUSLY!

Did you read his post? I think he acknowledge the admin's right to "compassionate dictatorship" :P which I do as well. However I don't think the admin properly explained the basis for his decision.

QuoteNOW MR. JACK I WELCOME YOU BACK AND HOPE YOU'LL GIVE YOUR BEST IN THIS FORUM. MR. DAVE, SAMMY AND YOU JACK, PLEASE FORGIVE MY INTRUSION HERE BUT WHAT I WANT YOU TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT ISLAM UNLIKE CHRISTIANITY HAS IT'S NORMS AND VALUES, PLEASE YOU SHOLD LEARN TO RESPECT THIS VALUES BEFORE YOU UNDERSTAND ISLAM, AND THEN COME TO SAY SOMETHING REGARDING IT.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Again with the Christianity bashing. Wetin we do una sef? So Christianity no sabi norms and values anymore? Maybe it was a typo and you meant to say "like", rather than "unlike" :P

Jack Fulcher · February 15, 2006, 07:31:55 PM

Well, Mlbash, I'll tell you what you're missing. You're missing the entire point of having a free and open discussion. You apparently agree with Admin's political point of view, so of course you're willing to allow him absolute power over what is said here. What if Admin were a fan of George Bush? Would you grant him such censorship powers in that case? You refer to some discussants having "little understanding," but fail to specify understanding of what. Little understanding of "world events"? Little understanding of "weather patterns in Australia"? Little understanding of "Islam"?

If you mean to say that Muslims do not value free speech rights as much as others, please say so. I can't believe that this is what you are saying, and I can't believe that it is true. You say "ISLAM UNLIKE CHRISTIANITY HAS ITS NORMS AND VALUES" but you can't really mean this. Christianity also has its norms and values, and most are the same as under Islam, as they have many books and prophets in common.

Mlbash, I hope you mean it when you invite me to give my best in this forum. If we all give our best, censorship by Admin would be only a contradiction.

Jack