WARNING!!!!!!

[HUSNAA]

Jama'a please be careful with 'IDRIS''s postings. He is what is called a Free thinker. He does not come across as a muslim. Read his postings very carefully and you will pick out many misconcepts. There has been a kind of campaign going on where non muslims try to divert muslims from the true worship by mixing the truth with palatable sounding falsehoods. Even the late Ahmad Deedat once mentioned how he was fooled into pocketing a small pamphlet in Arabic. You all know that the name of Allah is coupled with the name of the prophet all the time. Also there are beautiful calligraphic writings of Allah- Mohammad conjoined together. Once upon a time, Ahmad Deedat found this little piece of paper with the name of Allah on one side and what he took to be the name of the prophet on the other side. It was later on at home that he found out that the writing in arabic on the other side of the pamphlet was not mohammad but mohabbat. The way the calligraphy was applied was in exactly the same manner as  the prophet's name is written in Arabic, so that a passing glance at it will make you think that the name of the prophet is written. Incidentally, Allahu Mohabbat means God is Love which is a christian doctrine of course. But this sort of thing has been palmed off to muslims especially those who couldnt read and write arabic.
Please lets be more careful.

[Idris]

Jama'a please be careful with 'IDRIS''s postings. He is what is called a Free thinker. He does not come across as a muslim. Read his postings very carefully and you will pick out many misconcepts. There has been a kind of campaign going on where non muslims try to divert muslims from the true worship by mixing the truth with palatable sounding falsehoods. Even the late Ahmad Deedat once mentioned how he was fooled into pocketing a small pamphlet in Arabic. You all know that the name of Allah is coupled with the name of the prophet all the time. Also there are beautiful calligraphic writings of Allah- Mohammad conjoined together. Once upon a time, Ahmad Deedat found this little piece of paper with the name of Allah on one side and what he took to be the name of the prophet on the other side. It was later on at home that he found out that the writing in arabic on the other side of the pamphlet was not mohammad but mohabbat. The way the calligraphy was applied was in exactly the same manner as  the prophet's name is written in Arabic, so that a passing glance at it will make you think that the name of the prophet is written. Incidentally, Allahu Mohabbat means God is Love which is a christian doctrine of course. But this sort of thing has been palmed off to muslims especially those who couldnt read and write arabic.
Please lets be more careful.

"And when God Alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter are filled with aversion; and when others are mentioned beside Him, they rejoice!" (Q39:43)

My dear brother/sister - assalamu alaikum.

This is an Islamic forum where we have come to share our ideas and discuss issues that concern us. It is not a place for calling names.

I will prefer you write down your refutations and allow everyone to judge for himself or herself.

the word 'Free-thinking' might have been abused but it does not negate the fact that human beings can only progress when they allow themselves to see the truth as it is and not as someone might want them to see it.

Allah is the absolute truth.

The so called free-thinkers are not free-thinkers in reality because it is only by holding on the rope of Allah can a person become completely free from mental enslavement to think freely.

Please behave intellectually/maturely next time.

May Allah forgive your mistakes and bless you.

[HUSNAA]

Idris
In Islam, when people want to share ideas concerning the religion, a convention of learned ulamas takes place, in which issues relating to everyday life within an Islamic context and perspective are reviewed. and the ulamas exchange views and ideas within the limits of their understanding of the Quran, Sunnah and Islamic jurisdiction. They try and review analogous events in the past and look at previous rulings in different mazhabs. Eventually they come up with a solution that can cater for a present day event. Exchange of ideas is certainly good in Islam, but you should be a 'professor' of the deen. In other words not every tom dick and harry is in the position to pass fatwas. Secondly, The ideas must not go contrary to Islam and they must not be bid'ah that is new ideas and innovations.
In any Islamic forum, people will listen to you in so far as you are trying to talk about Islam within the boundaries of what the Quran, the Sunnah (Hadeeths) and Sharia teach.  You are not free to expound ideas outside of these realms. In the Quran Allah Has Told us that He Has Perfected our religion and called it al Islam. Thus there is no room for what you call 'share ideas and discuss issues that concern us' if you are going to expound your own ideas.
You are not concerned that I called you Bogus in another thread, but you are worried that I call you a free thinker? Maybe it is too close to the truth to digest easily no?
Like I said before, May Allah Protect  the minds of Muslims from mischievous people like you, and may Allah direct you towards the true Islamic teachings if indeed your motives are innocent.

[lionger]

I aknowledge that I am an outsider to this debate being a Christian, but nevertheless, I believe its much too soon for us to start getting so personal. Being a non-muslim I probably don't fully understand the implications of Idris' arguments but I don't think enough intellectual discussion has transpired for it to boil down to personal attacks. I'm an ardent reader of threads on this forum, and thus I've read Idris' posts with much curiousity. I'm very surprised that it took so long for the other muslims in this forum to respond, because I thought that most of you would not suscribe to his views. So why don't we cool it down a bit and have some more respectful, insightful debate that will be beneficial to all? God bless
P.S  BTW Husnaa you said,

Incidentally, Allahu Mohabbat means God is Love which is a christian doctrine of course

You are very right, we Christians firmly believe that God is Love. That is certainly a surer word on our doctrine and faith than all of Deedat's misinformation. My question: is this concept of God being love absent from Islam? You seem to indicate that in your posts.
Secondly, on another thread you affirmed that Jesus was not just a mere human but was the Word of God. Again I am in agreement as this is also Christian doctrine clearly spelled out in the Bible. In fact I was quite surprised to hear this from a muslim; do you know the full implications of what you said there? You might as well have said that Jesus is the Son of God! Both statements mean the exact same thing. Ponder over it for a while, it should lead you to a better understanding of the Christian take on the nature of Jesus Christ and God.
Feel free to reply in a PM or perhaps a separate thread, if responding to it here will divert the discussion.

[HUSNAA]

Lionger,
I am not attacking Idris. I am pointing out what he is and what he is doing. He is corrupting the message of Islam therefore there is nothing such as intellectual debates where this is concerned. He wrote that to practice Islam is Shirk. Shirk is the worship of other than God. He says the Hadeeth is the invention of the devil. How can any muslim read this and decide to have an intellectual debate? He negates some very fundamental Islamic concepts and in the same sentence tries to sound holier than thou He quotes the Quran and then puts interpretations upon the verses that suit his whims. Unfortunately, some of his interpretations are  subtle enough to easily mislead. That is why I put up a warning, not only for anyone who is intimately connected with this forum, but for others who might glance by.

To your other comments.

In Islam, we do not believe in the concept of God as Love. We muslims believe that God is Compassionate, Most Merciful and Cares and Loves all His creation. His love for his creation is the purest form of love. There is no love like the love of a mother for her child, but the love and compassion that God has for us his servants is much greater than the love and compassion of a mother for her offspring. But HE is not love. HE manifests it but He is not IT.

Jesus the Word of God.
Let me say it again. Not only is Jesus the Word of God, but he is also addressed as the Spirit fromGod especially by shi'a Muslims. WE MUSLIMS BELIEVE IN THIS.

Below is what God Commanded in the Holy Qur'an  (surah Aali Imraan verses 45 to 50), about the birth of Jesus and his being the word of God.

45 (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).  

46 He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.  

47 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.  

48 And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,  

49 And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.  

50 And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.  

51 Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path. [/i][/color]

The divinity of Christ is rejected in Islam because of the above as  Jesus is affirming the oneness of God and admonishing the ppl to worship only God and not him (Jesus).

Also in Surah Nisaai  verse 171 Allah Admonishes  the people of the scripture (Christians that is) with the following:

[iO People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender". [/i][/i]

There are no far reaching implications as you seem to think Lionger. I believe in Christ as the Word of God, a Spirit from God and a messenger of God, and NOT a son of God.
Peace

[HUSNAA]

I forgot to add pertaining to the far reaching implications of Jesus being the Word of God as interpreted in Christianity to mean Jesus is a son of God.  
The dialogue between Angel Gabriel and Hadhrat Maryam (Virgin Mary)  when angels visited her during the annunciation is this:

Qalat rabbi anna yakoonu lee waladun walam yamsasnee basharun qala kathaliki Allahu yakhluqu ma yasha'u itha qada amran fainnama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu (Aali Imraan verse 47)
 (Translation: She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He (Gabriel) said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.

Jesus was created when Allah Commanded him to 'BE', so he became.
When God Wishes to create a thing, He gives the Command for it to come into being. In surah Baqara and Surah Yaseen, this is clearly stated

Badeeus samawati wal ardh, fa ithaa Kadaa amran, fa inna ma ya kulu
lahu KUN fa ya kun (Surah Baqara Verse 117
(Translation: The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is).

Innama amruhu itha arada shayan an yaqoola lahu kun fayakoonu (Surah Ya seen verse 82)
(Translation: But His command, when He intendeth a thing, is only that He saith unto it: Be! and it is).

Jesus is described by Allah as HIS Word, to denote the HONOR Allah bestowed upon Jesus. Otherwise every creation would be deemed to be a progeny of God (Al Iyazu billah) since anything that Allah intends to come into being is commanded to come into being through theword KUN! (BE!)

[Idris]

Lionger,
I am not attacking Idris. I am pointing out what he is and what he is doing. He is corrupting the message of Islam therefore there is nothing such as intellectual debates where this is concerned. He wrote that to practice Islam is Shirk. Shirk is the worship of other than God. He says the Hadeeth is the invention of the devil. How can any muslim read this and decide to have an intellectual debate? He negates some very fundamental Islamic concepts and in the same sentence tries to sound holier than thou He quotes the Quran and then puts interpretations upon the verses that suit his whims. Unfortunately, some of his interpretations are  subtle enough to easily mislead. That is why I put up a warning, not only for anyone who is intimately connected with this forum, but for others who might glance by.

HUSNAA! You have to take the Qur'an as your Imam and the holy prophet as a model. In a situation like this, the prophet would never have reacted the way you are doing.

Al-Islam is a DEEN of awareness that is based on sound  proofs - al-Islam is the reality of life. That is why the prophet could challenge his opponent to bring an alternative if they be truthful. There is nothing after truth but falsehood.

HUSNAA! Is the book of Allah complete or not?

Wasn't the character of the prophet the Qur'an and the Qur'an alone?

Is the Collections by Bukhari and others (Al-Hadith) an appendix to the Qur'an?

Is anyone really sure that the prophet said those things?

Why don't we listen to speeches (regardless of the source) and take what conforms to the Qur'an?

If I reject what is against the Qur'an and affirm that the prophet never said or did it, I am not the lover of the prophet?

My dear brother/sister! Is this what you call rejection of al-Hadith? Go and read the article I posted in this respect with open mind again perhaps you will see it differently this time.

Concerning Practice of al-Islam as shirk; why have you chosen to quote me out of context?

Al-Islam is our whole life. We do not practice life - instead, we live a life.

Practising of al-islam along with other aspects of our life is definitely shirk. A Muslim does not practice al-Islam as part of his/her life.

HUSNAA! Please calm down and address these issues intellectually. We can never progress by this kind of attitude.

I pray that Allah forgive both of us and guide us to the truth.

Assalamu alaikum.

[neozizo]

Salaam Idris
I have read some of your posts with interest and I am curious. I have noticed that your articles have similarity and resemblance with ideology  works of Idries Shah the great mystic and Sufi scholar.
I have attempted to read and comprehend some of Shah?s work, without mush success cos as Shah repeatedly insists, to grasp and benefit from his teachings one has to have certain degree of intellectualism and enlightenment which I fear  I do not and may never attain or posses.

I have come across a lot of statements in your post that I believe have influenced Husnaa to declare a ?warning? against  them and I hope you forgive me for i also agree that some of the statements you make  contain contradictions and misconceptions although im of the view that declaring such warning is not necessary.
But then I may not be on the same intellectual plane as you and am incapable of comprehension beyond the contradictions and misconceptions.
PS
Is there any other connection between you and Shah other than that of name?

[Idris]

Salaam Idris
I have read some of your posts with interest and I am curious. I have noticed that your articles have similarity and resemblance with ideology  works of Idries Shah the great mystic and Sufi scholar.
I have attempted to read and comprehend some of Shah?s work, without mush success cos as Shah repeatedly insists, to grasp and benefit from his teachings one has to have certain degree of intellectualism and enlightenment which I fear  I do not and may never attain or posses.

Salaamun alaikum zizo.

I do not know this Idries Shah you talked about.

I believe that every complexity can be broken down into simplicity. So Issues can be simplified to the understanding of an ordinary person.

If we are programming a machine to do a highly complex job by writing down the simple steps then a human being can be made to understand issues. I hope you are aware of IDIOT GUIDE - it is to make issues as simple as possible that even an idiot can comprehend.

Brother/Sister! I still consider it as deception to claim that a person has to reach cetain stage before he can understand what is said. While I accept that a person can understand some higher issues which are not apparent to ordinary people, I do not accept that such issues can not be simplified to the understanding of all if there is the patience.

There is nothing I say which I am not ready to explain into detail. I can further simplify my statements till there is the understanding.

I have come across a lot of statements in your post that I believe have influenced Husnaa to declare a ?warning? against  them and I hope you forgive me for i also agree that some of the statements you make  contain contradictions and misconceptions although im of the view that declaring such warning is not necessary.
But then I may not be on the same intellectual plane as you and am incapable of comprehension beyond the contradictions and misconceptions.

You will be doing me a great favour if you can point out those statements that seem contradictory or contain misconceptions so that I can make the necessary clarifications or see my fault.

My dear brother/sister. Please feel free to discuss any of the issues with me into detail until there is understanding. There is nothing that you can not understand if you have the time and patience.

I have never claimed  to be in any postion that only special people can understand me.

If Qur'an is talking to all people then which position can be more than that of al-Qur'an?

May the peace and blessings of Allah be with you.

[HUSNAA]

Salaam Zizo
Can you talk more on Idries Shah and his ideologies so that we can get the similarities with (and divergences from) Idris's ideologies? I think it will be very stimulating. Personally I am not very inclined to sufism as it can get a bit extreme and Islam is not a religion of extremeties. I hope you comply.
ma'assalaam.

[neozizo]

Sorry Husnaaa,i dont know much about Shah myself, i only came across soe his books(Book of books, Way of the Sufi and ,learning how to know) which talks much about sufisim,mysticm and some of the stuff Idris writes but im sure you could get ore info if you google him.

Idris thanks for your willingness to offer further clarifications,i promise to compile a list of things u could help me with as soon as i can.Though i have the patience im afraid i dont have the time at the moment.

PS
Husnaa if you(or anybody else) are fortunate enough to get a copy of Shah's Book of Books,id be delighted to hear your views on the book.