Ahmadinejad's letter to Bush

[mlbash]

www.mpac-ng.org

12th Rabil 'Thanni, 1427 A.H.




Ahmadinejad's Letter to Bush

Iran's foreign ministry on Tuesday said it was waiting for a response from US President George W. Bush to a surprise letter sent by the Islamic republic's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Here is the text of the letter, obtained by AFP.



Mr. George Bush,

President of the United States of America

For sometime now I have been thinking, how one can justify the undeniable contradictions that exist in the international arena- which are being constantly debated, especially in political forums and amongst university students. Many questions remain unanswered. These have prompted me to discuss some of the contradictions and questions, in the hopes that it might bring about an opportunity to redress them.

Can one be a follower of Jesus Christ (PBUH), the great Messenger of God,

Feel obliged to respect human rights,

Present liberalism as a civilization model,

Announce one's opposition to the proliferation of nuclear weapons and WMDs,

Make "War and Terror" his slogan,

And finally,

Work towards the establishment of a unified international community- a community which Christ and the virtuous of the Earth will one day govern,

But at the same time,

Have countries attacked. The lives, reputations and possessions of people destroyed and on the slight chance of the presence of a few criminals in a village, city or convoy for example, the entire village, city or convoy set ablaze.

Or because of the possibility of the existence of WMDs in one country, it is occupied , around one hundred thousand people killed, its water sources, agriculture and industry destroyed, close to 180,000 foreign troops put on the ground, sanctity of private homes of citizens broken, and the country pushed back perhaps fifty years. At what price? Hundreds of billions of dollars spent from the treasury of one country and certain other countries and tens of thousands of young men and women- as occupation troops- put in harms way, taken away from family and loved ones, their hands stained with the blood of others, subjected to so much psychological pressure that everyday some commit suicide and those returning home suffer depression, become sickly and grapple with all sorts of aliments; while some are killed and their bodies handed to their families.

On the pretext of the existence of WMDs, this great tragedy came to engulf both the peoples of the occupied and the occupying country. Later it was revealed that no WMDs existed to begin with. Of course Saddam was a murderous dictator. But the war was not waged to topple him, the announced goal of the war was to find and destroy weapons of mass destruction. He was toppled along the way towards another goal; nevertheless the people of the region are happy about it. I point out that throughout the many years of the imposed war on Iran Saddam was supported by the West.

Mr. President,

You might know that I am a teacher. My students ask me how can these actions be reconciled with the values outlined at the beginning of this letter and duty to the tradition of Jesus Christ (PBUH), the Messenger of peace and forgiveness? There are prisoners in Guantanamo Bay that have not been tried, have no legal representation, their families cannot see them and are obviously kept in a strange land outside their own country. There is no international monitoring of their conditions and fate. No one knows whether they are prisoners, POWs, accused or criminals.

European investigators have confirmed the existence of secret prisons in Europe too. I could not correlate the abduction of a person, and him or her being kept in secret prisons, with the provisions of any judicial system. For that matter, I fail to understand how such actions correspond to the values outlined in the beginning of this letter, i.e. the teachings of Jesus Christ (PBUH), human rights and liberal values. Young people, university students, and ordinary people have many questions about the phenomenon of Israel. I am sure you are familiar with some of them. Throughout history many countries have been occupied, but I think the establishment of a new country with a new people, is a new phenomenon that is exclusive to our times.

Students are saying that sixty years ago such a country did not exist. They show old documents and globes and say try as we have, we have not been able to find a country named Israel.

I tell them to study the history of World War I and II. One of my students told me that during WWII, which more than tens of millions of people perished in, news about the war, was quickly disseminated by the warring parties. Each touted their victories and the most recent battlefront defeat of the other party. After the war they claimed that six million Jews had been killed. Six million people that were surely related to at least two million families. Again let us assume that these events are true. Does that logically translate into the establishment of the state of Israel in the Middle East or support for such a state? How can this phenomenon be rationalized or explained?

Mr. President,

I am sure you know how -- and at what cost -- Israel was established:

- Many thousands were killed in the process.

- Millions of indigenous people were made refugees.

- Hundreds of thousands of hectares of farmland, olive plantations, towns and villages were destroyed.

This tragedy is not exclusive to the time of establishment; unfortunately it has been ongoing for sixty years now. A regime has been established which does not show mercy even to kids, destroys houses while the occupants are still in them, announces beforehand its list and plans to assassinate Palestinian figures, and keeps thousands of Palestinians in prison. Such a phenomenon is unique- or at the very least extremely rare- in recent memory. Another big question asked by the people is "why is this regime being supported?" Is support for this regime in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ (PBUH) or Moses (PBUH) or liberal values? Or are we to understand that allowing the original inhabitants of these lands -- inside and outside Palestine -- whether they are Christian, Muslim or Jew, to determine their fate, runs contrary to principles of democracy, human rights and the teachings of prophets? If not, why is there so much opposition to a referendum?

The newly elected Palestinian administration recently took office. All independent (observers) have confirmed that this government represents the electorate. Unbelievingly, they have put the elected government under pressure and have advised it to recognize the Israeli regime, abandon the struggle and follow the programs of the previous government. If the current Palestinian government had run on the above platform, would the Palestinian people have voted for it? Again, can such position taken in opposition to the Palestinian government be reconciled with the values outlined earlier? The people are also saying "why are all UNSC (UN Security Council) resolutions in condemnation of Israel vetoed?"

Mr. President,

As you are well aware, I live amongst the people and am in constant contact with them- many people from around the Middle East manage to contact me as well. They do not have faith in these dubious policies either. There is evidence that the people of the region are becoming increasingly angry with such policies. It is not my intention to pose too many questions, but I need to refer to other points as well. Why is it that any technological and scientific achievement reached in the Middle East region is translated into and portrayed as a threat to the Zionist regime? Is not scientific R and D one of the basic rights of nations?

You are familiar with history. Aside from the Middle Ages, in what other point in history has scientific and technical progress been a crime? Can the possibility of scientific achievements being utilized for military purposes be reason enough to oppose science and technology altogether? If such a supposition is true, then all scientific disciplines, including physics, chemistry, mathematics, medicine, engineering, etc. must be opposed. Lies were told in the Iraqi matter. What was the result? I have no doubt that telling lies is reprehensible in any culture, and you do not like to be lied to.

Mr. President,

Don't Latin Americans have the right to ask why their elected governments are being opposed and coup leaders supported? Or, Why must they constantly be threatened and live in fear?

The people of Africa are hardworking, creative and talented. They can play an important and valuable role in providing for the needs of humanity and contribute to its material and spiritual progress. Poverty and hardship in large parts of Africa are preventing this from happening. Don't they have the right to ask why their enormous wealth -- including minerals -- is being looted, despite the fact that they need it more than others? Again, do such actions correspond to the teachings of Christ and the tenets of human rights?

The brave and faithful people of Iran too have many questions and grievances, including: the coup d'etat of 1953 and the subsequent toppling of the legal government of the day, opposition to the Islamic revolution, transformation of an Embassy into a headquarters supporting the activities of those opposing the Islamic Republic (many thousands of pages of documents corroborate this claim), support for Saddam in the war waged against Iran, the shooting down of the Iranian passenger plane, freezing the assets of the Iranian nation, increasing threats, anger and displeasure vis-a-vis the scientific and nuclear progress of the Iranian nation (just when all Iranians are jubilant and celebrating their country's progress), and many other grievances that I will not refer to in this letter.

Mr. President,

September Eleven was a horrendous incident. The killing of innocents is deplorable and appalling in any part of the world. Our government immediately declared its disgust with the perpetrators and offered its condolences to the bereaved and expressed its sympathies. All governments have a duty to protect the lives, property and good standing of their citizens. Reportedly your government employs extensive security, protection and intelligence systems- and even hunts its opponents abroad. September Eleven was not a simple operation. Could it be planned and executed without coordination with intelligence and security services- or their extensive infiltration? Of course this is just an educated guess. Why have the various aspects of the attacks been kept secret? Why are we not told who botched their responsibilities? And, why aren't those responsible and the guilty parties identified and put on trial?

All governments have a duty to provide security and peace of mind for their citizens. For some years now, the people of your country and neighbors of world trouble spots do not have peace of mind. After 9/11, instead of healing and tending to the emotional wounds of the survivors and the American people- who had been immensely traumatized by the attacks- some Western media only intensified the climates of fear and insecurity- some constantly talked about the possibility of new terror attacks and kept the people in fear. Is that service to the American people? Is it possible to calculate the damages incurred from fear and panic?

American citizens lived in constant fear of fresh attacks that could come at any moment and in any place. They felt insecure in the streets, in their place of work and at home. Who would be happy with this situation? Why was the media, instead of conveying a feeling of security and providing peace of mind, giving rise to a feeling of insecurity?

Some believe that the hype paved the way- and was the justification- for an attack on Afghanistan. Again I need to refer to the role of media. In media charters, correct dissemination of information and honest reporting of a story are established tenets. I express my deep regret about the disregard shown by certain Western media for these principles. The main pretext for an attack on Iraq was the existence of WMDs. This was repeated incessantly- for the public to finally believe- and the ground set for an attack on Iraq. Will the truth not be lost in a contrived and deceptive climate? Again, if the truth is allowed to be lost, how can that be reconciled with the earlier mentioned values? Is the truth known to the Almighty lost as well?

Mr. President,

In countries around the world, citizens provide for the expenses of governments so that their governments in turn are able to serve them. The question here is "what has the hundreds of billions of dollars, spent every year to pay for the Iraqi campaign, produced for the citizens?" As your Excellency is aware, in some states of your country, people are living in poverty. Many thousands are homeless and unemployment is a huge problem. Of course these problems exist- to a larger or lesser extent- in other countries as well. With these conditions in mind, can the gargantuan expenses of the campaign- paid from the public treasury- be explained and be consistent with the aforementioned principles? What has been said are some of the grievances of the people around the world, in our region and in your country. But my main contention- which I am hoping you will agree to some of it- is:

Those in power have a specific time in office and do not rule indefinitely, but their names will be recorded in history and will be constantly judged in the immediate and distant futures. The people will scrutinize our presidencies. Did we (manage) to bring peace, security and prosperity for the people or insecurity and unemployment? Did we intend to establish justice or just supported (special) interest groups, and by forcing many people to live in poverty and hardship, ma de a few people rich and powerful- thus trading the approval of the people and the Almighty with theirs? Did we defend the rights of the underprivileged or ignore them? Did we defend the rights of all people around the world or imposed wars on them, interfered illegally in their affairs, established hellish prisons and incarcerated some of them? Did we bring the world peace and security or raised the specter of intimidation and threats? Did we tell the truth to our nation and others around the world or presented an inverted version of it? Were we on the side of people or the occupiers and oppressors? Did our administrations set out to promote rational behavior, logic, ethics, peace, fulfilling obligations, justice, service to the people, prosperity, progress and respect for human dignity or the force of guns, Intimidation, insecurity, disregard for the people, delaying the progress and excellence of other nations, and trample on people's rights? And finally, they will judge us on whether we remained true to our oath of office- to serve the people, which is our main task, and the traditions of the prophets- or not?

Mr. President,

How much longer can the world tolerate this situation? Where will this trend lead the world to? How long must the people of the world pay for the incorrect decisions of some rulers? How much longer will the specter of insecurity- raised from the stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction- hunt the people of the world? How much longer will the blood of the innocent men, women and children be spilled on the streets, and people's houses destroyed over their heads? Are you pleased with the current condition of the world? Do you think present policies can continue? If the billions of dollars spent on security, military campaigns and troop movement were instead spent on investment and assistance for poor countries, promotion of health, combating different diseases, education and improvement of mental and physical fitness, assistance to the victims of natural disasters, creation of employment opportunities and production, development projects and poverty alleviation, establishment of peace, mediation between disputing states, and distinguishing the flames of racial, ethnic and other conflicts, (where) would the world be today? Would not your government and people be justifiably proud? Would not your administration's political and economic standing have been stronger? And I am most sorry to say, would there have been an ever increasing global hatred of the American government?

Mr. President, it is not my intention to distress anyone.



 
If Prophet Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael, Joseph, or Jesus Christ (PBUH) were with us today, how would they have judged such behavior? Will we be given a role to play in the promised world, where justice will become universal and Jesus Christ (PBUH) will be present? Will they even accept us? My basic question is this: Is there no better way to interact with the rest of the world? Today there are hundreds of millions of Christians, hundreds of millions of Moslems and millions of people who follow the teachings of Moses (PBUH). All divine religions share and respect one word and that is "monotheism" or belief in a single God and no other in the world.

The Holy Koran stresses this common word and calls on all followers of divine religions and says: (3.64) Say: O followers of the Book! Come to an equitable proposition between us and you that we shall not serve any but Allah and (that) we shall not associate aught with Him and (that) some of us shall not take others for lords besides Allah; but if they turn back, then say: Bear witness that we are Muslims. (The Family of Imran)

Mr. President,

According to divine verses, we have all been called upon to worship one God and follow the teachings of divine Prophets. "To worship a God which is above all powers in the world and can do all He pleases." "The Lo rd which knows that which is hidden and visible, the past and the future, knows what goes on in the Hearts of His servants and records their deeds." "The Lord who is the possessor of the heavens and the earth and all universe is His court" "Planning for the universe is done by His hands, and gives His servants the glad tidings of mercy and forgiveness of sins" "He is the companion of the oppressed and the enemy of oppressors" "He is the Compassionate, the Merciful" "He is the recourse of the faithful and guides them towards the light from darkness" "He is witness to the actions of His servants" "He calls on servants to be faithful and do good deeds, and asks them to stay on the path of righteousness and remain steadfast" "Calls on servants to heed His prophets and He is a witness to their deeds" "A bad ending belongs only to those who have chosen the life of this world and disobey Him and oppress His servants" and "A good end and eternal paradise belong to those servants who fear H is majesty and do not follow their lascivious selves." We believe a return to the teachings of the divine prophets is the only road leading to salvation. I have been told that Your Excellency follows the teachings of Jesus (PBUH) and believes in the divine promise of the rule of the righteous on Earth.

We also believe that Jesus Christ (PBUH) was one of the great prophets of the Almighty. He has been repeatedly praised in the Koran. Jesus (PBUH) has been quoted in Koran as well: (19.36) And surely Allah is my Lord and your Lord, therefore serve Him; this is the right path.

Service to and obedience of the Almighty is the credo of all divine messengers. The God of all people in Europe, Asia, Africa, America, the Pacific and the rest of the world is one. He is the Almighty who wants to guide and give dignity to all His servants. He has given greatness to Humans. We again read in the Holy Book: "The Almighty God sent His prophets with miracles and clear signs to guide the people and show them divine signs and purify them from sins and pollutions. And He sent the Book and the balance so that the people display justice and avoid the rebellious."

All of the above verses can be seen, one way or the other, in the Good Book as well. Divine prophets have promised: The day will come when all humans will congregate before the court of the Almighty, so that their deeds are examined. The good will be directed towards (Heaven) and evildoers will meet divine retribution. I trust both of us believe in such a day, but it will not be easy to calculate the actions of rulers, because we must be answerable to our nations and all others whose lives have been directly or indirectly affected by our actions. All prophets speak of peace and tranquility for man- based on monotheism, justice and respect for human dignity. Do you not think that if all of us come to believe in and abide by these principles, that is, monotheis m, worship of God, justice, respect for the dignity of man, belief in the Last Day, we can overcome the present problems of the world- that are the result of disobedience to the Almighty and the teachings of prophets- and improve our performance? Do you not think that belief in these principles promotes and guarantees peace, friendship and justice? Do you not think that the aforementioned written or unwritten principles are universally respected? Will you not accept this invitation? That is, a genuine return to the teachings of prophets, to monotheism and justice, to preserve human dignity and obedience to the Almighty and His prophets?

Mr. President,

History tells us that repressive and cruel governments do not survive. God has entrusted the fate of men to them. The Almighty has not left the universe and humanity to their own devices. Many things have happened contrary to the wishes and plans of governments. These tell us that there is a high er power at work and all events are determined by Him.

Can one deny the signs of change in the world today? Is the situation of the world today comparable to that of ten years ago? Changes happen fast and come at a furious pace.

The people of the world are not happy with the status quo and pay little heed to the promises and comments made by a number of influential world leaders. Many people around the world feel insecure and oppose the spreading of insecurity and war and do not approve of and accept dubious policies. The people are protesting the increasing gap between the haves and the have-nots and the rich and poor countries. The people are disgusted with increasing corruption. The people of many countries are angry about the attacks on their cultural foundations and the disintegration of families. They are equally dismayed with the fading of care and compassion. The people of the world have no faith in international organizations, because the ir rights are not advocated by these organizations. Liberalism and Western style democracy have not been able to help realize the ideals of humanity. Today these two concepts have failed. Those with insight can already hear the sounds of the shattering and fall of the ideology and thoughts of the Liberal democratic systems. We increasingly see that people around the world are flocking towards a main focal point -- that is the Almighty God. Undoubtedly through faith in God and the teachings of the prophets, the people will conquer their problems. My question for you is: "Do you not want to join them?"

Mr. President,

Whether we like it or not, the world is gravitating towards faith in the Almighty and justice and the will of God will prevail over all things.

Vasalam Ala Man Ataba'al hoda

Mahmood Ahmadi-Nejad

President of the Islamic Republic of Iran

[HUSNAA]

The letter was ill timed and unnecessary given the sort of man that Ahmadenejad is dealing with. Besides there were some deliberate kurakurai in it. He continues to deny that the holocaust ever happened. I think it is a bit naive of him to do that. Acknowledge the holocaust, but state that it in no way justifies the atrocities committed on the Palestianians then or today and it in no way justifies depriving Palestianians of their rightful heritage, Jerusalem.
I firmly believe that the promised land of the Jews even back then in the time of Moses was really America not Canaan or Palestine. The Jews gave up their right to Palestine when they deliberately disobeyed God's Commands to enter it and wrestle it from the then inhabitants during the time of Prophet Moses and God cursed them and sent them wondering ever since.
I say America is the promised land of the Jews because no where else in the world (even in Israel) are they more successful. In America, they own everything that is worth owning in this world and that is why American presidents will forever be pro Zionist and pro Israel because the American Jews are the real masters of America, not Bush or any other pretender.

[lionger]

I firmly believe that the promised land of the Jews even back then in the time of Moses was really America not Canaan or Palestine. The Jews gave up their right to Palestine when they deliberately disobeyed God's Commands to enter it and wrestle it from the then inhabitants during the time of Prophet Moses and God cursed them and sent them wondering ever since.

:shock:  :shock:  :shock:  Eh? Where did you get these ideas from? Is this what the Quran says?

I say America is the promised land of the Jews because no where else in the world (even in Israel) are they more successful. In America, they own everything that is worth owning in this world and that is why American presidents will forever be pro Zionist and pro Israel because the American Jews are the real masters of America, not Bush or any other pretender.

This logic doesn't really make sense, you know. The Jewish lobby while very powerful certainly does not control everything 'worth owning' in the US; neither are they its masters; that just isn't true. Just because someone is successful at something doesn't mean that it is God-sanctioned. After all America is the present world superpower and some of us will say they have been successful in inflicting many injuries on the Muslim world, but I'm sure you won't conclude that God supports their actions. You don't think the Jews have been more successful in Israel? It is a strong nation on almost all fronts and has been successful in beating back Arab aggression for the better part of 50 years!

I strongly oppose the whole Iraq debacle and I have done so from the very beginning (check the older threads). However Ahmadenejad really bothers me in equal measure. No statesman that wants to be taken seriously will engage in Holocaust denial. It's not just a matter of naivety; its a matter of brazen deception and hypocrisy. While he's on his high horse I hope he's also tackling with equal gusto Iran's own poor human rights record.  :!:

[HUSNAA]

About the Jewish promised land, this is what the Qur'an says about it

20  And (remember) when Moses said unto his people: O my people! Remember Allah's favour unto you, how He placed among you prophets, and He made you kings, and gave you that (which) He gave not to any (other) of (His) creatures.  

21  O my people! Go into the holy land which Allah hath ordained for you. Turn not in flight, for surely ye turn back as losers:  

22  They said: O Moses! Lo! a giant people (dwell) therein and lo! we go not in till they go forth from thence. When they go forth from thence, then we will enter (not till then).  

23  Then out spake two of those who feared (their Lord, men) unto whom Allah had been gracious: Enter in upon them by the gate, for if ye enter by it, lo! ye will be victorious. So put your trust (in Allah) if ye are indeed believers.  

24 They said: O Moses! We will never enter (the land) while they are in it. So go thou and thy Lord and fight! We will sit here.  

25 He said: My Lord! I have control of none but myself and my brother, so distinguish between us and the wrong-doing folk.  

26 (Their Lord) said: For this the land will surely be forbidden them for forty years that they will wander in the earth, bewildered. So grieve not over the wrongdoing folk.  (Suratul Ma'ida verses 20 to 26).

The verses are clear enough and there is no need for me to go into any deeper explanations except to state one point concerning  the 40yrs that Jews were to wander in the wilderness. I only want to state that as time is a relative phenomenon, a year in the eyes of mankind is like less than a second with God. So forty yrs doesnt necessarily have to mean our earthly forty yrs. Just like the day of Ressurection will be like fifty thousand yrs in human reckoning (or more).
I'd like to reiterate that Jews own everything that is worth owning in America and not only America, other parts of the world. I will talk on that later but I want to get my facts together first.

[lionger]

Thanks for the Quranic verses HUSNAA; that was very thoughtful of you. It certainly fits in well with what the Jewish Scriptures say. However I fail to see how you derived such a fantastic conclusion from those verses. Yes God is timeless but that doesn't exactly support what you are saying. Can you please post other verses from the Quran that show that God made the Jews wander for several centuries to this day?? From the Jewish Scriptures it is crystal clear that God meant 40 literal years.
About today's Jews, again I repeat that as long as you are talking about 'straight facts', Jews do not own everything 'worth owning'. That is myth, not fact. In any case, that really isn't and should not become the point of this thread, which is about Ahmadenejad's letter. To me, it reads like a lot of high-handed nonsense. Why do we always pay attention to these types??

[Ete]

"So forty yrs doesnt necessarily have to mean our earthly forty yrs. Just like the day of Ressurection will be like fifty thousand yrs in human reckoning (or more). " -Husnaa

But in the case of the resurrection, no specific time line was given.  Christ or God never said specifically, that the resurrection will be in 40, 50, or 60 years, so no one knows for sure when the resurrection will take place. And to offer a point of correction here, the idea that 40 years in the eyes of God maybe a considered a second is used incorrectly in this context.
If you quote the entire text where that statement was made, you'll see that it is two ended. It goes something like this, .....1,000 years in the eye of the lord is like a day, WHILE A DAY IS LIKE A THOUSAND YEARS. This supposedly is why the resurrection is delayed so that there is ample time for people to set straight their ways so as to avoid excuses.

Now, in the case of the wandering Jews in the wilderness, 40 years is clearly 40 years, and that appears to be clear enough.

What I do not understand is how anyone can read the passages you posted up there and conclude with that, that Isreal has no right to occupy the land it currently occupies, but that rather America is the promised land. How does anyone arrive at such a conclusion when history is so obvious.  Jerusalem of three thousand years ago still stands where it has always stood. Difference being that it had been occupied by several different powers at different points in history.  Palestinians continue to make claims, but historically what exactly is their claim to the land?

What I see is Israel occupying a land it once owned as its ancestral land, and its Arab neighbors wanting to deny them that right, but remain unsuccessful.  The more reasonble Arab countries like Jordan and even Egypt  recognized the futility in sustaining a campaign of hate and aggression against Israel, and subsequently backed out of it.

As for Iranian President, I am not sure he is a man to be taken seriously. Rafsanjani before him was more of a reformer and a pragmatist.
I believe as some Iranians do that Ahmadinejad is unable to deliver on his campaign promises to revamp the ailing economy and end corruption. As such, he hides his failures in these redundant anti-Israeli rhetoric.
Any leader of substance will focus more of his attention on his domestic responsibilities.

Let me also say here, if the quotes of Husnaa above are from the Koran, it does indicate that Allah seemed to have some kind of relationship with these people (Jews) I mean, acording to the Koran, He freely offered them Land that other people owned and occupied. Even when the Jews expressed reluctance to take the Land by force, Allah seemed offended by their lack of desire or courage.  I am sure evidence of that special relationship between Allah and the Jews exists in several other portions of the Koran. Shouldn't the Arabs/ Muslims caution themselves to a degree in their fight against Israel? The showdown that Ahmadinejad is looking for may backfire on him.

[HUSNAA]

Hmm. I would like to point out that I am looking at this subject of jews and the promised land from an Islamic perspective. So I doubt we will arrive at an agreement between us. One of the fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam, is that we have different perceptions of God's Attributes and even His Omnipotent Capabilities. So enough on this subject. Suffice it to say that muslims reading this thread will comprehend me more than you and even Lionger have done Ete, since they would have a better knowledge of the Qur'an than either you or Lionger. I also appreciate the fact that you are looking at it from the point of view of the Bible.  
Now in order that the thread is not closed down by his excellency the admin, I think it is best we keep off the subject in this thread. I hope to open a thread on this interesting topic on the Islamic forum where in sha Allah Admin will not close it down.
You are absolutely correct on one point. There was (is) a very special relationship between Jews and Allah. If you notice (and this is also a point in the bible) they were chosen and honored by God over all other races.  Most of the known prophets were descended from the Jewish race Prophet Yakub (Jacob), Ishaq (Isaac), Yusuf, (Joseph),  Musa (Moses), Haroon (Aaron), Isa (Jesus), Zakariyah (Zachariah), Yahya (John), Iliyas (Elijah) Ayub (Job) Dawud, (David) Sulaiman (Solomon) to name some of them.  However the Jewish ppl proved to be headstrong and disloyal to God, killing some of their prophets (e.g. beheading of John to pacify Salome(?)) and also bending the Laws of the Torah to suit their whims, accepting some  parts and rejecting other parts and still inventing some parts. That is why God's Anger descended especially on the Jews.
In any case, the promised land wasn't virgin land, it was already occupied so it didnt really belong to the Jews. It would have if they had obeyed the Commands of God and taken the land. So if God refused them the land, how can they ever lay claim to it then?   As I said before, I am looking at this from an Islamic perspective, and therefore expect to hear some dissenting voices.
As for Ahmadinejad, I think Iran has a right to nuclear energy. The problem with the West or Bush is that Islam and muslims are synonymous with terrorism in their eyes and the West has succeeded in implanting this propaganda in the psyche of the world's non muslims so that muslims are looked upon with fear and loathing.
Iran has been saying it will use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. Why not take the statement at face value? Besides who is to say that in the future there wont be a 'mad' American president who will happily 'press the button'? It has happened before with Hiroshima. The more often Americans vote for ultra right conservatives, the closer they come to this goal of having a nuclear trigger happy president!

PS You mistook my point about the ressurection, and again you are looking at it from the Bible's and I from the Quranic perspective. Although the knowledge of the Day of Reckoning is only with God, the signs of it are all around us. The Prophet Salaam (Mohammad SAW)  thoroughly covered the subject in his sermons.  The statement I made about the day of ressurection being like fifty thousand yrs is a statement in the Qur'an. It was not made by me. What it means is that humans will stand before the Creator to be judged and the length of the day for us mortals will be equivalent to 50,000 yrs. I am not referring to earthly time left before the day of resurrection.

PPS this phenomenon of the relativity of time is neither allegorical nor is it supernatural. It is a physical thing.  For example one day on earth is approximately equal to 59 days on the planet Mercury and 243 days on planet Venus and 1 yr on earth is equivalent to 248 and a half years on Pluto. There is nothing religiously fantastic about time. After all time is defined in our planetary system by the rotations of the planets round the sun and on their own axes and also the orbital paths they follow.  How about the rest of the universe? What are the factors by which time is measured outside our own galaxy and outside our own means of measuring time?

[lionger]

Hmm. I would like to point out that I am looking at this subject of jews and the promised land from an Islamic perspective. So I doubt we will arrive at an agreement between us. One of the fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam, is that we have different perceptions of God's Attributes and even His Omnipotent Capabilities. So enough on this subject. Suffice it to say that muslims reading this thread will comprehend me more than you and even Lionger have done Ete, since they would have a better knowledge of the Qur'an than either you or Lionger. I also appreciate the fact that you are looking at it from the point of view of the Bible.  

Understood. I certainly do not know much about the Quran; which is why I discuss with muslims based on their own interpretation.  As such I asked you if the Quran supports your view. However, the verses you have posted do not support your conclusion that the Jews were meant to wander (in the desert, mind you) for more than the literal 40 years. If anything they are a very, very short summary of what is contained in the Jewish Scriptures in much more detail.

You are absolutely correct on one point. There was (is) a very special relationship between Jews and Allah. If you notice (and this is also a point in the bible) they were chosen and honored by God over all other races.  Most of the known prophets were descended from the Jewish race Prophet Yakub (Jacob), Ishaq (Isaac), Yusuf, (Joseph),  Musa (Moses), Haroon (Aaron), Isa (Jesus), Zakariyah (Zachariah), Yahya (John), Iliyas (Elijah) Ayub (Job) Dawud, (David) Sulaiman (Solomon) to name some of them.  However the Jewish ppl proved to be headstrong and disloyal to God, killing some of their prophets (e.g. beheading of John to pacify Salome(?)) and also bending the Laws of the Torah to suit their whims, accepting some parts and rejecting other parts and still inventing some parts. That is why God's Anger descended especially on the Jews.

Agreed.

In any case, the promised land wasn't virgin land, it was already occupied so it didnt really belong to the Jews. It would have if they had obeyed the Commands of God and taken the land. So if God refused them the land, how can they ever lay claim to it then?   As I said before, I am looking at this from an Islamic perspective, and therefore expect to hear some dissenting voices.

Like I said before God made them wander in the desert for a period of 40 years as the Jewish Scriptures record. Infact, the Jewish scriptures tell us that God's intent was that the entire disobedient generation died, except two men: Joshua and Caleb, who had been willing to take the land. Afterwards they entered the promised land and remained there until the scattering by the Babylonians and later the Romans as secular history records. God did not 'refuse them the land' for an eternity or for several centuries based on their refusal to take the land then. While I agree that my take is based on the Old Testament in the Bible, I don't think you have proved that your view is from an Islamic perspective, apart from simply stating that it is. In the verses you provided, there is nothing there to prove your point of view that the period of 40 years is not literal. To put it simply, can you provide a verse from the Quran that shows this?Or a verse that shows that God entirely refused the Jews that particular land? Yes the land was already occupied by then, but according to the Bible God said that He would remove the previous occupants because of their sin. Even if the 40 yr period is not literal, it is clearly a definite period of time, so who's to say that God has not given palestine back to Israel in our recent history? As it is, I see absolutely no reason why your view is any more Islamic than mine is.

As for Ahmadinejad, I think Iran has a right to nuclear energy. The problem with the West or Bush is that Islam and muslims are synonymous with terrorism in their eyes and the West has succeeded in implanting this propaganda in the psyche of the world's non muslims so that muslims are looked upon with fear and loathing.
Iran has been saying it will use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes. Why not take the statement at face value? Besides who is to say that in the future there wont be a 'mad' American president who will happily 'press the button'? It has happened before with Hiroshima. The more often Americans vote for ultra right conservatives, the closer they come to this goal of having a nuclear trigger happy president!

:) Wow HUSNAA I think you should perhaps give the U.S. as much benefit of doubt as you give Iran. Of course Iran has a right to nuclear energy, but you know that's not the point of discussion. It's the capacity to build nuclear weapons that the Western powers hope to eliminate. So why not take the West's intentions at face value  :) ? Personally I'm tired of the hypocritical antics of the 'big five' in this regard, but I'm also not comfortable with the idea of a nuke-capable country whose leader talks of another country being wiped off the map. So you think the Hiroshima bombing in 1945 was the result of a 'mad American president pressing the button'? My brother, you are so thoroughly wrong here. This is an absurd and unfair simplification. Based on the history of the war in the pacificJapanese imperial power at the time, it is quite obvious that a huge loss of life on the mainland was inevitable in any case. Their kamikaze-style fighting would have ensured a huge loss of life on both sides if America took the other option; i.e. a land invasion.
The West probably shares a bit of the blame for the 'muslims=terrorist' stereotype, but frankly too many professing muslims all over the world have not helped matters with their words or actions. That includes some of us on this forum!

PPS this phenomenon of the relativity of time is neither allegorical nor is it supernatural. It is a physical thing.  For example one day on earth is approximately equal to 59 days on the planet Mercury and 243 days on planet Venus and 1 yr on earth is equivalent to 248 and a half years on Pluto. There is nothing religiously fantastic about time. After all time is defined in our planetary system by the rotations of the planets round the sun and on their own axes and also the orbital paths they follow.  How about the rest of the universe? What are the factors by which time is measured outside our own galaxy and outside our own means of measuring time?

This is really besides the point and makes little logical sense contextually. Are you trying to say that all of a sudden God was talking about  40 Venus maybe Pluto years or maybe a measurement from another galaxy to people who would only have understood earth years? Such reasoning makes God out to be a deceiver, for surely he knew that the Israelites then would have no understanding of the solar system. Again I ask, is there any verse in the Quran that says that this 40-year period in the desert is not literal? Imagine how confusing things could become if the relative time concept every time the Quran makes reference to a time period. No, there's nothing religiously fantastic about the mechanics of the solar system, but your conclusion still sounds fantastic to me!

[_Waziri_]

Interesting discussion indeed!

I will like to comment on the first submission of Husna and lionger concerning  the naivity or otherwise of the position taken by the Iranian president on the Holocaust. I will like to emphatically state that the Iranian president is not the first statesman or intellectual who engage in holocaust denial in the annals of history. And when looked at from the point of view of history, social anthropology and empherical idealism otherwise known as the study of history in the context of consprational theories, we will hardly deny the ample evidence substantiating the claims of the Iranian president. Bush and other Western intellectuals and statesmen know that quite well and it is the reason why they take him serious. For example if all the influence Marxism has registered across the globe within the preceding century, both as a political and economic theory, would in the final analysis be discovered to be a huge academic and social fraud financed and supported by a selected few ideologues from the capitalist West in the hope of achieving world dominion, what will stop the possibility of having something like the holocaust to mean just the the same thing both in purpose and practice?

Those among us who have a very intimate familiarity with the history of the Jews as is obtained from the Bible and other secular materials, the origin of the Sephardim Jews, the later incoporation of Eastern Jews known as the Ashkenazi Jews into the world synagogue. How they produced personalities like Cham Weizmann who admitted that their laws  and guiding principles in the Talmud teache belief in "literal efficacy of cursing" will find no qualms questioning the postulations of the Iranian president that these people may have exageratted the situation in Germany then, to favour their political cause as aptly expressed in the writings of Doulas Reeds: Disgrace Abounding, Insanity Fair, and The Controversy  Of Zion.. There are other scholars like Arthur Koestler who wrote The Thirteenth Tribe, Nester H. Webster and many others who believe with strong postulations that the Holocaust was more of a media hype that aimed at achieving a goal of creating the state of Israel which will serve as the final bus stop as the world centre for the service of The Great Architect of the Universe, a god, the modern Jews have learnt to worship since the days of their mingling with Egyptian cults before Moses liberated them. Later they continued their practice by creating the golden calf in an attempt to re-affirm their loyalty to the old and overpowering faith.

Also according to Islam, Qur'an, Bible or any source from secular history, there is nothing like a promised land for the Jews. But rather we will find  in the old testament, Genesis in particular, a shady claim that the land was given to the seed of  Abraham and if that is is anything to go by then the Jews alone will not lay claims on it. Other Arabs can claim it also. Myself also dark as I am can claim it since I have Fulani blood in me and Fulani are said to be the causins to the Jews thru' Jocob's brother Esau.  

Another thing is, the Iranian president never said Israel should be wiped off the map as Lionger allude to, but rather he said since in the present  world Atlas there is nothing like Israel then, it should be wiped off from the face of the earth. That by no means signifies that anybody should be killed but rather it calls for reversal of the agrement that led to the creation of the Israeli state. Simple.

[Ete]

The funny thing is that even the Germans do not deny the Holocaust.
Recorded documentaries, pictures, tapes, eye witness accounts from the Allied forces that first entered the nazi death camps, to survivors, all the way to captured German SS officers do not deny the genocide that took place, just 50 years ago. I find it somewhat strange that any rational person would even attempt to deny this clear fact.

One question, and this may be deemed offensive to many here. If the holocaust which happened just 50 years ago, and with ample evidence all over Germany and other parts of Europe is false despite survivor accounts, despite the gory pictures, despite implicating documents, despite live recordings of bodies, survivor accounts, etc, if all that is a myth, what make the existence 1500 years ago of say, the prophet of allah real? I mean let's face it, no one ever saw him. There are no pictures or portraits of him anywhere on earth. Archeaologists have not discovered anywhere in Arabia to support the claim of his existence 1500 years ago. We also know how skilled these Arabs are at fabricating falsehood and myths for their several agendas. I'm sure we can see a strong indication here that the prophet and all the claims associated with him is quite possibly a myth.

Now, which is of these two history changing event is more believable? Some unsubstantiated account about a prophet that existed 1500 years ago? No proof whatsoever about if this man even existed in the first place, or documented accounts of a travesty that occured between 1939 and 1945?

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

David Irvin, a prominent historian who wrote books denying the Holocaust has just been sentenced to several years in jail in Germay for his lies.

We should be very careful of believing anything the Americans say that the President of Iran has said. The US is distorting everything he says to make a case for invading Iran (for it's oil).

[_Waziri_]

It is interesting that Mr. David would caution us on what America says about the Iranian president. If it is true that an America will create so much hype about Ahmaddenijad in order to hang him, wont it have been easier for so much hype and heaps of documents be created over time to have exxagerated the events of 1933-45 in order to favour some vested interests?

And if Germany would support the truth of Holocaust by having PROMINENT historians like David Irvin jailed, not disproving the ample evidence he has to support his claim, then Germany should know that it is wrong by its action. Reason, not force, is the tool to be used to kill a revolution or an idea.

Also while I can list about 10 or more prominent scholars worldwide who denied, using reasoned logic, the tendencies claimed in the account of the Holocaust, I dare any reader to come up with a single supposed or actual evidence used by any prominent scholar to deny  the existence of Prophet of Islam.

Finally, I will want all to ponder over the reason why the following quotes from Deutronomy, one of the books of the TORAH, that expatiated on the laws and beliefs of the Jews, the choosen people, is not being popularised.
Really if Jews would take hatred against other races to be part and parcel of their religion why wouldn't others hate them back with equal measure?
This re-echoes nothing but the truth of the claims by some honest Jews that,  'After all, the Nuremberg laws are only the translation into German of our own Mosaic laws, with their ban on intermarriage with Gentiles'?

"And the Lord spake unto me, saying. . . This day will I begin to put the dread of thee and the fear of thee upon the nations that are under the whole heaven, who shall hear report of thee, and shall tremble, and be in anguish because of thee . . . And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it . . . And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them. . . to drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance . . . And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee, thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them; neither shalt thou make marriages with them. . . ye shall destroy their altars and break down their images. . . For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth . . . And thou shalt consume all the people which the Lord thy God shall deliver thee; thine eye shall have no pity upon them. . . But the Lord thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction until they be destroyed . . . He shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven, there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them . . . Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours. . . even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be . . . Of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shall save nothing alive that breatheth . . . thou shalt lend unto many nations and thou shalt not borrow . . . Ye shall utterly destroy all the places wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods. . ."

Deuteronomy.

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

I'm afraid Waziri's views about doubts about the reality of the Holocaust are complete rubbish and he diminishes himself by publishing them.

I have consistently since I joined this forum attacked the evil that America does. They are the greatest evil in the world today. But it's nothing to do with religion. It is all to do with controlling the whole world and grabbing all of the world's oil.

[_Waziri_]

Well, Mr. David, you may call me or my views by whatever name you want. I believe the average reader of will be able to see thru' the reality of my working with proofs and complete reference materials.

I am still my old self, reasoned logic and facts are my food. When you cannot match, you don't yap. :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

[mlbash]

David Irvin, a prominent historian who wrote books denying the Holocaust has just been sentenced to several years in jail in Germay for his lies.

We should be very careful of believing anything the Americans say that the President of Iran has said. The US is distorting everything he says to make a case for invading Iran (for it's oil).

that's what i call an absolute objective mind mr. Dave. is nice to hear from you again. :)