I really... am tired

[_Waziri_]

I have observed a recent trend most of the discussions at k-online are assuming, which proves very insulting to reason and pricking to individual consciense.

I must reiterate here that the primary reason why we gather here to discuss issues of regional and international importance is to educate and imform one another using reasoned logic and palpable facts whenever we make assertions that require substantial evidence to make good sense.

But then when some among us deliberately prove themselves allergic to reason always, or atleast colour every issue with the cloak of the person who is making an assertion, then definately these people are sowing the seed of destructing any good sense any debate may make on the forum.

I am saying this having in mind the comments of a certain Lionger and a certain Ete made on my comments about the crises between Israel and Arabs which suggests that the Jews of Israel are fighting a battle only to prove a point with a very deep religious conviction. That their empire is built only on a certain religious dogma which keeps them under the illusion that they alone are banafide humankind in the sight of God.

To this all the two took exception by saying:
Ete:

Apart from that, you seem to be injecting religion into this issue, and this is not necessarily about religion. The Jews are quite clear that the actions they have taken border around their security as a people and as a nation. They have not claimed to be carrying out the wil of God or anything along those lines.

Lionger

In any case you are correct when you say that this particulr subject isn't really about religion as Waziri tries to show it. Israel is not quite a theocratic nation.

And in the same thread Ete went ahead to assert, truth or false, that Arabs cannot defeat Israel because Israel nation found base in religion. hear him:

Lionger took the time to respond to Waziri concerning the promised Land dispute in another forum. I think you should read that piece because it seems to explain why despite the odds, Isreal still stands firm.

This is not even mentioning Lionger's very incorrect reading of the Bible that makes him believe it is God that gave the Jews, the land, which he earlier claimed should not be seen from a religious point of view.

I must say I am tired of this gross insult on our collective intelligence. If this people can agree and be logical enough to admit the truth that the Jews have a religious mission in their occupation of the Arab lands. I can conviniently continue the discussions with them in order to find the true nature of this religion and its origin which informed the hatred that is explicated on the pages of the book of Deuteronomy. Otherwise, I will find reason to abandon you people and attend to other meaningful issues that will add brilliant colour to only well-intentioned participants, elsewhere.

[EMTL]

Assalamu alaikum,
Waziri in as much as I share your concern for some people's insensivity and refusal to see things as they should be, but you should rather stay and carry on.

[HUSNAA]

Haba Mallam Waziri. Kai ba'a ma zage kaba. Ni da na sha zagi har kashi biyu fa, dan na fadi gaskiya? Da Allah ka da ka tafi. Sai hakuri. Ka san a komai a rayuwa sai ka sami opposing factions. Wa'yansu zasu yi opposing din ka da kuma duk abin da za ka fada, ba dan komai ba sai dai don kai da su addinin ku ba daya bane, ko kuwa tsananin kabilanci, da raina 'yan arewa, saboda ana ganin ba abinda 'yan Arewa suka sani a fannin rayuwar zamani, ko ilimin zamani.
Mutane da yawa wa'yanda suke 'yan kudan cin Nigeria, suna fadowa cikin wannan forum din cikin yawace yawacen su a intanet, da wani superior attitude na tunanin cewa, duk mu'amallar da zasuyi, anan, zasu nuna wa 'yan Arewan tsananin ilimin da superiority da suke da shi da mu ('yan arewa) ba mu ko taka kara a kai ba. Sai tafiya tai tafiya, za kaga girman kan ya sakko, in an fara fahimtar juna. Saboda haka ba wani abin mamaki bane. Lokatai da yawa, ina so in cigaba da muhawarorin dana fada ciki, da wa'yan su mutane, amma in na dubi halin da nake ciki, sai inga bani da lokancin. Sai sun kawo wani abin haushi, ko sarkakke wanda mutum yasan a hankali, zai iya nuna musu kurakuren su, sai naga ce wa, zan bata lokaci ne kurum, when I can be getting on with more muhimman abubuwa, and besides some posts, really take time to construct, saboda sai kayi tunani, ka dubo material dinka to back u up and so on. Kuma it all takes time. So I quite understand yr frustrations. Amma dont leave. We need you as a vanguard and a bastion.

[Ete]

Waziri, I join Husnaa in appealing to you not to leave.  By all counts you are an intelligent man.  This does not mean that everyone will agree with your position on issues though. It also does not mean your views are always right.  Like you say, we are all here to discuss issues. I disagree with you though that my posting on the Arab-Isreali conflict is an insult to anyone's intelligence. How is that?

My views are presented with verifiable facts. I do not think Arab sympathizers would necessarily agree with that, but documented account of events are just that.  

Concerning the issue of Jews and religion, I said from the beginning that to the Jews, this campaign against Hezbollah has nothing to do with religion. This is about security and their right to exist.  If we are to be honest, whenever conflict arises, it is the Arab Muslims that always infuse religion in the equation with the goal of ganering greater support and participation from fellow Arabs. This is a common pattern that we see over and over.

The truth is waziri, the Arab world had the ultimate goal of destroying Isreal. They outnumber the Jews 50-1. The question is have they succeeded in accomplishing that objective? When I made a statement that the Arab World cannot wipe Isreal off the map as they hope, I am looking at history. In 1948, the entire Arab World (with sophisticated weaponry) went to war against a rag-tag Isreali defense force, and lost. They sustained heavy casualties.

1967 WAR: Result: Arab defeat, and loss of territory
The 1967 Arab-Isreali war again ended in disaster for the Arabs.  The war was fought between Israel and the nearby Arab states of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, and Syria.   At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights.

Here is how they matched up against each other in terms of numbers.

ISRAEL:
50,000 troops
197 combat aircraft


ARAB NATIONS IN THAT WAR:
280,000 troops
(Egypt 150,000)
Syria 75,000;
Jordan 55,000)
812 combat aircraft

1973 War: Result: Arab defeat at the hands of Israel:
The war began on the day of Yom Kippur with a surprise joint attack by Egypt and Syria. They invaded the Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively, which had been captured by Israel in 1967 during the Six-Day War. The Egyptians and Syrians advanced during the first 24?48 hours, after which momentum began to swing in Israel's favor. By the second week of the war, the Syrians had been pushed entirely out of the Golan Heights. In the Sinai to the south, the Israelis had struck at the "seam" between two invading Egyptian armies, crossed the Suez Canal (where the old ceasefire line had been), and cut off an entire Egyptian army just as a United Nations cease-fire came into effect.

Again, let us look the strengths of both sides:

Israel:

415,000 troops;
1,500 tanks
3,000 armored carriers
945 artillery units 100 mm and up
561 airplanes, 84 helicopters; 38 warships

Arab Coalition:

EGYPT
800,000 troops (300,000 deployed)
2,400 tanks,
2,400 armored carriers
1,120 artillery units 100 mm and up
690 airplanes, 161 helicopters; 104 warships

SYRIA: 150,000 troops (60,000 deployed)
1,400 tanks
800-900 armored carriers
600 artillery units 100 mm and up
350 airplanes, 36 helicopters; 21 warships

IRAQ: 60,000 troops
700 tanks
500 armored carriers
200 artillery units
73 airplanes

Now, this history and stats ought to tell any clear thinking person a whole lot.  I'm telling you waziri, confrontation with these Jews is not a walk in the park now.  Now I know Hamas, and Hezbollah are pretty formidable groups, but these Israelis don't play. They are not like certain Nigerians that allow themselves to be victims of religious riots and fanatism, and 'leave it to God to judge". These Jews do not leave anything to God to resolve. They take matters into their hands and extract their own pound of flesh. Honest they make sure they inflict more than enough pain when they repay their enemies.

But, let's all see how this plays out.

[HUSNAA]

These Jews do not leave anything to God to resolve. They take matters into their hands and extract their own pound of flesh. Honest they make sure they inflict more than enough pain when they repay their enemies.

What a very appropriate comment. The first 'person' purported to demand a pound of flesh was Shylock, a Jewish money lender (Merchant of Venice), and it seems to point to a jewish affinity to over extract vengeance.  Lebanon is an example.

[_Waziri_]

You see, Ete I think I pointed at the section of your post which appears insulting to intelligence which you have not clarified or made any effort to counter. I must say that your avoiding that makes me a bit most uncomfortable with you. Nevertheless I will move ahead to question the statistics you have provided up there as regards your sources. In the absense of any good source on your part I will hasten to tell you that Michael Bar-Zohar, the person who wrote the biography of Ben-Gurion - Ben, was the commander of Israeli solidiers during six day war in 1967 - had it in the book, The Armed Prophet, page 173, quoting Ben as saying: "Let's be frank - it was not because we were able to perform miracles that we won, but because the Arabs armies are rotten."

That is to tell you that the Jews themselves know why they were able to defeat the Arabs, not your constant claim that it was some miracle or that Arabs had more sophisticated weapons than the Jews and yet got defeated.

Also one South African paper, The Daily News of May 29, 1974, carried a report by a certain Martin Zucker which says:

"The average Arab soldier, according to the Israelis, continues to be an individual coming from a peasant background with about six years of schooling...the average Israeli soldier-conscript, in comparison, has eight to 12  years of schooling, part of it technical...the Israelis rate their enemies as better physical specimens than them."

Ete, this is the truth, they Arabs, were not only out moneyed but also out weaponed and out-guned.

Before I depart I will leave you with what an American Christian lady, Alice F. Smith, said about the Palestian question way back 1989 in the February 20, edition of time magazine, 1989. Hear her describing the Israelites:

What manner of man would retaliate against a stone throwing child by shooting him in the back as  he ran away? What manner of government would retaliate by fining already poverty striken parents $1,000, demolishing their home, and confiscating heir meager possessions? What manner of people are these arrogant settlers who think they have a God-given right to commit such atrocities and still cry for more? What manner of people are we , that we permit our government to give away billions of the American taxpayers' dolloars to Israel every year, enabling it to continue to subjugate the Palestinians?

Please Ete, try to come to terms with the truth that the Hizbullah were only saying that Israel must release other Arab prisoners they detain before they ask them to release their own. Instead then, Israel just retaliate with inhuman attacks, presuming that it is their right to detain Arab soldiers but  NOT Arabs right to detain their own. Yet, the Arabs must release Israel's soldiers and must not demand that Israel should release Arab soldiers. This is not a fair deal.

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

The actions of Israel in Lebanon and Gaza are war crimes under international law which explicitly forbids attacks on civilians and on any nation's infrastructure. The whole international community except US and UK have condemned the Israeli barbarism.
Bush and Blair will roast in hell for the innocent blood on their hands.

At last the rest of the world is beginning to wake up to the fact that the US is governed by a half-witted madman who is merely the puppet for those behind him who want to seize all the world's resources.

Dave McEwan Hill

[HUSNAA]

I hope Lionger and Ete are reading this post of yours, Dave. They usually respect what you say far and beyond what anyone else on this forum writes, and you are saying Israel's actions are indefensible

[Ete]

Husnna,....what makes you say that? That is really funny. Well, as they always say in diplomacy, Dave is entitled to his own opinion.

Look, the truth of the matter is, you cannot keep attacking people indisciminately from across a border and expect no consequence. Dave here is a flip flopping inconsistent opinionist.  I cannot take many of his views seriously because they are often anti western rants and not careful analysis of the facts and the history involved in the subject matter.

I drew your attention to so many facts in this conflict. You choose to ignore those facts. I have drawn your attention to history. Again, you chose to ignore history.  It is not only in the Charter of several Arab nations in the middle east to destroy Israel. They've put up spirited efforts to carry out that objective by striking Israel first, and instigating war.

What do you people expect? What would you do when your life and way of life is threatened by people that are hell bent on your destruction? It appears that you expect Israel to fold its arms and do nothing while her enemies attack her at will.  This appears to be what you and Dave would prefer, but that is wishful thinking.

You keep blaming Israel. If the Arabs do not want fierce retaliation from Israel, then common sense dictatates that they stop waging war against Israel.  Egypt and Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel after series of similar wars that accomplished nothing but cause them to lose their territories instead.  Since that peace treaty and a cessation of hostility, has any of those countries had any problems with Israel? NO! Has Israel attacked Egypt or Jordan since the peace was established? NO! Do you know why? Simple, because these two countries are not engaging in constant conflict and terror activities against Israel.  You people do not seem to get it for some reason.

Israel pulled out of Lebanon several years ago. The reason why they were in Lebanon in the first place was as a result of war that was imposed on them by the Arab nations (including Lebanon). In that conflict, Israel gained control of Lebanese territory where hizbollah and other terror groups used in launching constant rocket attacks against Israel.  Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 1982.  Hezbollah and hamas used the presence of Israel in Lebanon as a basis for their constant rocket attacks against Israel. But then Israel pulled out. Why did the attacks not stop?

When Israel defends itself as any responsible society should do,  Dave calls it war crimes.  What do you call the spate of suicide bombings that palestinian militants carry out in Israel even when Israel went to the negotiation table, pulled out of Gazza, and demolished Jewish settlements in the West Bank? What do you call that? They give several concessions for the sake of peace, but  what they get in return are suicide bombers blowing up civilian commuter buses and killing hundreds of people. What do you call that Dave and Husnaa?  If Israel's actions are tantamount to war crimes, what about the crimes committed against Israel over and over again?

Dave, to tell me of once when the entire Arab world has condemned acts of terror against Israel by Islamic militants. When Al Quaeda killed Africans Kenya and Tanzania and destroyed  infrastructure in those countries, where was the condemnation for that?

Again, it comes down to historical dishonesty or ignorance.  When people here continually choose to ignore the whole picture, but pick when to point the finger, they'll wallow in self deceit.  
Let us not forget that UN resolution 151 calls for the disarmament of Hezbollah. Has that happened? No!!!!!!!!!
Hezbollah, embeds itself into civil society, and from there, they carry out attacks against civilian positions in Israel. They are not a conventional army that goes to battle against opposing military forces. They rather carry out their evil affairs indescriminately against civilains, and expect to walk away scud free.  If that is what you people are advocating,  then that is unfortunate.

As part of its strategy, Hezbollah hides weapon caches in homes,  does not target Israeli's military assest, but targets unarmed civilians with its rocket attacks instead, and then retreat back into civilian population in Lebanon thinking that by using civilian infrastructure as a shield,  they will be safe to carry out their terror acts. Is that not callousness?

Like I said earlier,  Israel has demonstrated that she will go after all Hezbollah hideouts.  If Hezbollah wants, they can use cripples as human shield, but Israel is determined to take this fight to whatever level it needs to go in defense of itself.

If Arab countries are serious about achieving peace with Israel, they will in turn find peace.  Egypt and Jordan came around, and today, those are turmoil free nations.  The palestinians under Arafat were totally unserious about achieving a peaceful resolution, and as such the impasse with Israel still exists.  

Arab muslims are known for their die hard and uncompromising nature. And as I said before, unfortunately for them, they have met their match in Israel that will only give so much, and then become resolute in their position.  Let's watch and see how this plays out.

[Ete]

..

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

I have rarely read such rubbish as that penned by Ete in his most recent post.
As regular visitors to this forum are aware I am every bit as opposed to racist and intolerant Islamists as I am to American barbarism and Israeli mass murder of women and children.

The FACT is that international law states categorically that it is a war crime to attack the civilian population and the infrastructure of any nation no mather what the excuse.
The FACT is that is what Israel is doing at the moment.
The FACT is that 168 members of the UN have called on Israel to stop immediately and that only 3 - Israel. US and UK - disagree with this resolution.

I coulds write all night about the more than fifty years of Israel aggression against the Palestinians (whose land they are on), of more than fifty years of the theft of more and more Palestinian land, of more than fifty years of the Palestinains seeing their homes bull dozed and their children killed and dozens of UN resolutions against the rogue Israeli state which Israel just ignores.
But I've got other things to do and I will leave Ete to believe the US/Israeli  lies he has been fed.

Dave McEwan Hill

[Ete]

Dave, your logic stuns me. So going by your UN definition of genocide, what do you call the suicide bombings in Israel where palestinian jihadists strapped themselves with explosives and blow up civilian buses full of women and Children? What do you call it when palestinian militants detonate a bomb in a crowded civilian area killing scores of people?
What would you call hezbollah's constants rocket attacks against Israeli civilians? It is a simple question, and I would expect a simple answer from you.

You say I have been fed American lies? What exactly are the lies you are refering to? Everything I have said is verifiable. I provide stats that you can research yourself in case you are in doubt.  Prior to this escalation in Lebanon, we witnessed several hezbollah and hamas attacks against Israeli civilians.  BBC, CNN, and even Al Jazeera reported those incident and both hezbollah and hamas were known for claiming responsibility for all of those attack. So going by your warped logic, are you saying then that Hezbollah and Hamas were lying when they went on T.V and claimed responsibility for a successful attack that kills several people?  How do you explain this one Dave? Now you are in a box.

The other thing that amazes me is your limited knowledge of history. Explain to me how the land that Israel occupies belongs to the palestinians. Please set aside all the irrelevant long talk, just explain how Israeli terriroty belongs to the palestinians. That shouldn't be too difficult.

Thanks in advance

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

Ete
Stop talking nonsense and learn your history
The territory the Israelis presently occupy "legally" was called Palestine, inhabited by the Palestinians until Britain and America seized a large part of it after the Second World War and gave it to Jews from all over Europe to set up a new state of Israel.
The Palestinains were not asked.
Since then Israel has continually invaded and extended it borders illegally and in defiance of all United Nations resolutions to grab by armed force more land from the poor Palestinians and build more illegal Israeli settlements. They have recently withdrawn from a very small part of these illegal occupations.
They have killed and continue to kill Palestinian civilians, women and children like dogs as they do so.
This explains the suicide bombers. The Palestinains who cannot stand up to Israeli might, armed to the teeth with all the latest weaponry by America, feel they have no other course of action.
It should be pointed out that Israel, in defiance of the United Nations, also has nuclear weapons. It is a criminal state acting illegally all the time.
The exisence of Israel is the reason for the instability in the Middle East.
Were Israel to behave in a peaceful and legal manner to all the states around it there might be a possibility of progress towards peace, though it is unlikely that the Palestinians will ever agree that their land should have been taken from them and given to other people.
This act of stupidity by UK and US is the cause of the continuing conflicts.
It should be noted that the US actively wants instability in the Middle East and is looking for an excuse to attack both Syria and Iran, which would allow it to invade both or either of these countries. It is to be hoped that Syria ands Iran have the good sense not to be provoked into any military action at the moment in Lebanon.
With Russia now supporting Iran and Syria the third World War (which varioius seers have forecast will start in Iran in 2012) becomes a frightening possibility.
The US objective is to seize control of all of the Middle East and all Middle Eastern oil. It already control Iraq's. It wants Iran's. It is no coincidence that the Americans are now moving into Afghanistan in large numbers on a number of excuses. The pipe line than brings the oil out of the central Asian States (which are run by puppet US dictators) runs across Afghanistan.
Waken up, Ete
Nigeria is already on the US list!

Dave McEwan Hill

[Ete]

Dave, and you think I am confused? Wow! Settle down, I will soon provide you with a more accurate version of history. Now, you've thrown the oil equation into the argument.  The US controls Iraq. Does Iraq apear to be under anybody's control? Is that what a controlled society looks like?
Look Dave, let us stick with  the issue. Quit dragging this discuss in different directions. Let's put things in perspective here beacause what you've just written up there makes little sense to this dialogue.  Bear with me shortly, I'll be back.  Besides, you weren't able to respond to any of questions, especially  this part..

"Dave, your logic stuns me. So going by your UN definition of genocide, what do you call the suicide bombings in Israel where palestinian jihadists strapped themselves with explosives and blow up civilian buses full of women and Children? What do you call it when palestinian militants detonate a bomb in a crowded civilian area killing scores of people?
What would you call hezbollah's constants rocket attacks against Israeli civilians? It is a simple question, and I would expect a simple answer from you. "

[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

The US controls Iraq's oil is what I said if you read  carefully.
The present chaos in Iraq suits the US perfectly well.
All oil installations are under control of the American military.
They don't care about anything else that is happening in Iraq - but the American public is beginning to see what the score is. Even a Democrat Preisident is unlikely to pull US troops out of Iraq. The chaos gives them the excuse that they must stay.

Dave McEwan Hill