Author Topic: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue  (Read 62000 times)

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Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2004, 06:48:56 AM »
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Barde


I noticed once again you conveniently qouted only the last line of the verse. Your qoute of 1Timothy 3:16 "He was taken up into the heaven" wait a minute and ponder about the statement (remember trinity). ?1Timothy 3:16 reads: Beyond ALL QUESTIONS (my emphasis), the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in BODY (my emphasis) was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world was taken in glory. ?I see the last line is your concern when you read the whole verse in context you will see that the last line was refering to the resurection of Jesus. ?So I do not get your point except if you are trying to bring in the ressurection which I will suggest we wait for another time and another thread.


Mallam,

i quoted the last part cose i didn't want my post to be long. God in flesh taken up by who? explain
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2004, 06:57:59 AM »
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Barde

You wrote and I qoute "what kind of uniqueness is Mallam talking about? when the God he is worshipping, felt thirsty as stated in John 20:28. Also God cried, seeking for help from another God, as stated in Mathew 27:46 and i quote
 
"Eli,Eli, lema sabachthani"? meaning My God, My God, why have you foresaken me? (Mathew 27:46). We all know that these two verses (john 20:28 and Mathew 27:46) are among the commonest attribute of mankind. Tell me how is he unique? Remember trinity."

In the first place as I said I am begining to feel there is a delibrate attempt on your part to misqoute the bible completely or else where did you get your qoute on John 20:28? John 20:28 reads: Thomas said to him "My Lord my God." ?So Barde where did you get your thirst story? On Mathew 27:46, you have touched on one of the central themes of christainity for here we see God love for mankind and His desire to save man. ?You see in christainity, Jesus laid His life for us sinners His life was never taken away, because it was the plan all along. ?Lets start from verse 45 Note that before Jesus uttered those words, darkness came over all the land. It is in this period of darkness that Jesus became the Sin-offering for the world (John1:29; Rom.5:8; 2Cor.5:21; 1Peter 2:24; 1Peter 3:18) and remember God is Holy as far as we christians are concerned and our bible continously reminds us of that, He can not look at sin no matter the size, it goes against the Holyness of God. ?Now it is at this point when Jesus took over the sin of the world that God turned away (seperated from Jesus), near the end when Jesus could not bear the seperation with the Father, He cried out Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? (My God My God why have You forsaken Me?). ?Jesus sensed a seperation from the Father He had never known, for in becoming sin, the Father had to turn judicially from His Son (Rom. 3:25-26). ?So do not use this passage in you case on the Trinity if anything, this verse only confirms it futher. ?Remember my advise to you please read contextually and cross reference.



Mallam

From the version of the bible am using, how i wish we are doing this thing face to face, you would have seen it. i have given you the details of the version you can go and verify.

Why didnt you say God in flesh took over the sin of the world that God turned away from God in flesh? does that make any sense to you? we all know that when two things are equal they can perfectly substitute each other.
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2004, 07:20:04 AM »
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Barde


You wrote and I qoute "Mallam,find below lists of how God was described in your bible and let me know your responses on each and every verse......"

1. Jacob wrestles with God (Genesis 22:30).

ANS: ?Firstly there is nothing like Gen 22:30 I suppose you are refering to Gen 32:22-28. ?Please note that from verse 24 the wrestle was with a man who appeared out of nowhere. ?It is also significant to note that this fight was at night and Jacob was also seized with fear and uncertainty. ?You must also note that Jacob never lost the fight until an extraordinary supernatural act was evoked to gain advantage and the fight lasted till day break. ?This wrestle was with an Angel of God (see also Hosea 12:4) and because the Angel of God is God's representative he bears God's name (see also Exodus 23:21) and that is why you have in verse 28 ".......you have struggled with God.....". ?Also note that this struggle was not just physical but was also spiritual.
 


Mallam

Am sorry for misquoting the verses, is a mistake from my own self. It will help us in no small measure if i can quote the verses in question.

"This left Jacob alone in the camp, and a man saw that he couldnt win the match, he struck Jacob's hip and knocked it out of joint at the socket. Then the man said, Let me go, for it is dawn, but jacob panted, i will not let you go unless you bless me. what is your name? the man asked. he replied Jacob, Your name will no longer be jacob, the man told him, why do you ask? then he blessed jacob there. Jacob named the place Peniel- face of God, for he said ?i have seen God face to face, yet my life has been spared". Gen 32:24-30.

I have gone through the story but i haven't seen where it is mentioned that Jacob wrestles with an Angel. and how could an ?ordinary man blessed Jacob as written in the story?
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2004, 12:05:12 PM »
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Barde

 
2. Smoke from God's nostril and devouring fire from his mouth(2 Sam 22:9).

ANS: I wonder if you understand what an attribute is. ?Again your qoute says nothing. ?This is just a description by David of God's anger over His enemies and it continues with what He (God) will do to them. ?This does not describe God at all, so I do not see your point.
 


Mallam

Ordinarily i woudn't have brought in this verse but if you can remember, you described Allah with all sort of things that is why i said let me show you that worst things can also be found in your bible.
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2004, 12:21:50 PM »
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Barde

 
3. Brutality and showing no mercy on the part of God, ordering that there shouldn't be any treaty. (Deutronomy 7:2).
Go and read about the treaty of Hudaybiyya.

ANS:The command to destroy them totally should be seen in this light. ?Firstly we know that the wages of sin is death and these nations that are being spoken about here were known for their sins (see also Deutronomy 9:4-5) ?Studies of their religion, literature, archeological remains reveal that they were the most morally depraved culture on the earth at that time. ?Secondly they persisted in their hatred of God (see also Deuteronomy 7:10), had they repented God would have spared them as He spared the Ninevites who repented at the preaching of Jonah, repentance was out of the question for these people. Thirdly the Canaanites constituted a moral cancer (see also Deuteronomy 20:17-18; Num 33:55; Josh.23:12-13), one of them even a child left alive had the potential introducing idolatory and immorality which would spread. ?You must understand that it is only God who knows the heart of men so He knows the future, the killing was not because He did not give them a chance, but He knew their heart and in His infinite wisdom acted accordingly.



Mallam

How can a good God be Merciless? and he was asked about the last day in the book of Mark 13:32 but he denied having knowledge of it? and you are now telling us that he knows the future. Is that not a contradiction?
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2004, 12:26:49 PM »
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Barde

.

4. The lord will bring a terrible curse on a whole nation and cause its people to experience greater terror (Isiah 7:17). Is your God a terrorist?
 
ANS: Yo see you determination to misqoute the bible has hardened your heart you are not even interested in checking your facts. ?The verse contains judgement God is visiting Ahaz a branch of the house of David, for his iniquity. So I wonder how Gods warning of judgement can classify Him as a terrorist in islam. ?Please read the whole chapter first. ?Does not Allah also promise grave judgement in the quran? And about terrorism well I will leave you with that you know the rest.




Mallam

How can a good God bring terrible curse on a whole nation?
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2004, 12:48:56 PM »
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Barde


5. ?God rested and refreshed (Exodus 31:17). Your God became exhausted after creating the heaven and the earth. What a unique attribute. See qur'an 55:29, it will give you an idea of a unique attribute.

ANS: I see your conclusion of the verse is that God rested as you would rest again please read the chapter again note please the rest is symbolic and not God catching a nap or something. ?Note that it was on the seventh day, this is the day that is considered the sabbath day by the Jews, on this day they do no work but is a day set aside to rest and worship and praise God. ?I see you really do not know the meaning of attribute, how can you lack of study and investigation into a matter be a sign of lack of an attribute of God?
 


Mallam

Let me quote the whole verse so that you can clarify more.
" It is a permanent sign of covenant with them. For in six days the lord made heaven and earth, but he rested on the seventh day and was refreshed". Exodus 31:17
What i want to tell you here is that such verses are not suppose to be in the holy bible cose ?only humans get refreshed after a hectic job. Just read over your answer, jews considered the sabbath day which is a work free day for them,so i want you to tell us that, is your God a jew or is he also praying?
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2004, 01:05:21 PM »
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Barde

7. God behaves like a drunk(Psalms 78:65). Waiyya zhubillah.
 
ANS: I suggest you read start from Ps 78:1-4 please note that it starts as a story in form of a parable. You should always as a rule find context please. ?This is the Paslm o Asaph the speech is all figurative. ?Here it is a way or likening the wake to the rise of a mighty man. Of course if you are to read it literally and out of context you get a different message and that is what I am trying to get to you. ?You must contextualise each time you read the bible, go to the root of what is being said or else one would end up with a warped sense of interpretation like yours. ?You have said in you posting Allah allows some level of promiscuity as shown when some prophets were involved in it, I sincerely will be waiting for your explanation on that.


mallam

What am trying to tell you here is that, How can a holy God be likened to a drunk? we all know the meaning of like, and we know who a drunk is, do you agree with me that such a verse is not worth having a space in a holy book? Let me again remain you for misunderstanding me, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was the only prophet during his time and you are now saying prophets, haba mallam.
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2004, 01:27:25 PM »
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Barde

8. 1Timothy 6:16 states and i quote "He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No one has ever seen him, nor ever will. To him be honor and power forever" (1Timothy 6:16). Remember trinity?

ANS: This does not contradict the Trinity, I have written alot about the Trinity now, I think it is time you tell me based on all I have posted on the subject what you understand by the Trinity and stop this childish run aroun flinging same verses everytime yet not picking on what I have posted in that regard. ?to me it appears it is not the whole picture you are interested in but just a statement you can read and interpret your own way without investigating what the statement means from the bible. ?Let me give you a little background, early in his ministry Paul was convinced Christ will return soon. ?Now near the end of his ministry he showed awareness that Christ might not return before he died and a desire to encourage Timothy to leave the timing of this great event up to the Lord. ?Hence Paul stressed that God will bring about Christ's appearing in His own time. ?So contrary to what you are trying to say that particular verse as qouted by you is refering to Christ's second coming (please note that King of Kings and Lord of Lords is the title of Christ see Rev 19:16)



My question here is that you correlate 1 Timothy 6:16 with Jesus as God in flesh and let me hear your comment. That was what i meant by saying you should remember Trinity.

In your answer you said and i quote " Hence paul stressed that God will bring about Christs appearing in his own time. Will i be correct if i say, God will bring about God in flesh appearing in his own time. if am not correct, tell me why and if am correct, does the sentence make any sense to you?
im

Offline Barde

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Re: : Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2004, 01:52:04 PM »
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Barde

9. Mark 11:12-14. Am still appealling to my freinds to allow me Narrate this short story. According to the book of Mark chapter 11 verses 12- 14, Jesus curses a fig tree.
"The next morning as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus felt hungry. He noticed a fig tree a little way off that was in full leaf, so he went over to see if he could find any figs on it. But there were only leaves because it was too early in the season for fruit. Then jesus said to the tree, May no one ever eat your fruit again! And the disciples heard him say it."Remeber trinity?

The point i want to make here is that Jesus(remember trinity), was completely ignorant of the season, he taught he could get something to eat on the tree. Remember Genesis?God created everything and yet, he felt hungry and wasted his time going to a fruitless tree, and after that he became angry to the extent that he cursed the tree.

ANS: ?You are really fixated by the word Trinity. ?I am glad verse after verse I have shown you the concept of the Trinity and you do not have anything to say about that or to disput instead you keep going back to the same things. ?You have an insatiable appetite to want to decieve. ?Let us see how ignorant you are, you say Jesus did not know the season. ?It is a fact both historically and even presently that in Palestine (the area of the story) fig trees produced crops of small edible buds in March followed by th appearance of large green leaves in early april. ?these early green "fruit" (buds) was common food for local peasants. ?Eventually these "fruits" (buds) dropped off when the normal crop figs formed and ripen in late may june - the fig season. ?So I hope you have learnt something, and have recognised how ignorant you are. I do not get the point you want to make on the Genesis part. ?Do not feel bad about your ignorance please if you do not raise such points nobody will see them and give you the right information and you will remain ignorant.




Haba Alaramma

Did i ask you to explain when fig trees grow crops? all what i was trying to tell you is that  how comes Jesus ( God in flesh) as the creator of everything ( that is why Genesis came in) did not know whether there are some edible fruits on the fig tree?.That was just what i asked you, i didn't demand for that long grammer, Just answer my question.

Jesus too, oh am sorry, God in flesh, showed his ignorance about the season, dont be angree with me i can see that you are loosing patience, dont blame me, point accusing fingers to the person that wrote the bible, am only quoting what i saw. If you cannot answer it, please help me ask your pastor or Rev father, okay?... dont be angree with me. Am earnestly waiting for your response.
im

Offline Maqari

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2004, 03:06:14 PM »
Eskimo
  an excellent write up that was, well reserched i may add ,
Mallam
  thanx for the time you donated to my thread ,its not out of context that u couldnt grasp the concept because that was just a letter to a friend and not ultimately clear and written text can sometimes appere very vaig i did follow up the first post with a second response to waziri's assertions u might want to check it out , and feel free to respond,
Barde
  i found your post to be really exhausting to read , maybe because the writing structure leaves no room for digestion , please try in the future to encompass all your points in a less chaotic manner so that your readers are more comfortable as they browse thru it , well i think thats about it keep the ideas floating comrades , ONE

Offline Eskimo

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2004, 06:57:27 PM »
Barde you are making this thread unnessarily cumbersome...please try to compress your posts.

I KNOW YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO DRIVE THE POINT HOME!
KEEP IT FLOATING...MAN. ;D

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Malam....??? ???
color=blue]NOBODY is PERFECT and I am NOBODY.[/color]

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #57 on: March 13, 2004, 06:25:02 PM »
Barde

I must emphasise that chriatians believe in only one God and I have been saying that all along so I am not sure if you understand that.  I see you also questioned how Jesus could have human attributes (hunger etc), remember in one of my postings I made it clear that one of the things about christianity is that we can not say a situation is too much for us therefore we sin.  Jesus has been through everything we as humans go through so we can not make such escuses.  You ask me for my definition of justice.  Again you are just runing away from the issue, the point is not that of definitions but an attribute.  Anyway to answer that question this way, what is the difference between a shape and (say) a triangle?  Can you see why it is important that an attribute (such as Justice) is mentioned clearly? A shape can be anything and is not definite a triangle is a definite shape.  So maybe you would like to answer my question on the matter now.  In another part you asked if my God was a jew God or praying God to this maybe you should educate yourself on the origin of the term christian.  I am indeed sorry for misqouing you on the issue of prophets it was not delibrate, but still for followers (disciples) of Mohammed (SAW) does it not worry you and raise questions of their holiness considering this act and the fact that it is accepted by a Holy Allah? please let me know your answer and if it does not worry you please also tell why (you have so far not commented on this act).

Maybe in aswering your questions on the relationship between God and Jesus, we should also look at what the quran says a bit more closely and try and follow your logic because it is obvious your questions are based on the quran(?) position which in all truth is unclear

The Qur'an says Jesus is not the son of Allah. Yet it is also entirely consistent with the Qur'an to consider Allah the Father of Jesus for the following reasons:

1) Allah caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus
2) Allah determined some of the physical characteristics of Jesus
3) All of the genetic characteristics of Jesus were determined by just two parties: Allah and Mary.


Muslims might argue "Being a father implies having sex", and therfore Allah cannot be the father. Not necessarily so. Modern science has brought us "test tube babies", which are conceived without any sex. There is nothing to support the idea that if Allah wants a baby, he must resort to normal human means to have one.

Again, a Muslim may say that if we are going to call Jesus the son of Allah, then we should say that Adam is the son of Allah too. No, we cannot compare Adam to Jesus this way because Adam came into existence without a mother.

Let us first review some background material. What does the Qur'an say about how Mary became pregnant with Jesus? In Surah 3:45-49 we read:


The angels said to Mary: "Allah bids you rejoice in a word from him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary. He shall be noble in this world and the hereafter, and shall be favored by Allah. He shall preach to men in his cradle and the prime of manhood, and shall lead a righteous life."
"Lord", she said, "how can I bear a child when no man has touched me?"
He replied: "Such is the will of Allah. He creates whom He will. When He decrees a thing He need only say: 'Be' and it is. He will instruct him in the Scriptures and in wisdom, in the Torah and in the Gospel, and send him forth as an apostle to the Israelites..."
From this passage we can draw the conclusions presented above:
1) Allah caused Mary to become pregnant with Jesus. Muslims infer from this passage and others like it that Jesus was conceived while Mary was a virgin by the word spoken by Allah, and not by a man.

Not that this in itself implies that Allah is the father. When a doctor causes a woman to become pregnant by artificial insemination, he is not considered the father. Hence the following two points:

2) Allah determined some of the physical characteristics of Jesus.
When Allah said "Be", did he have something specific in mind? Certainly! Allah had a very detailed plan in mind for Jesus. In particular, Allah decided that Jesus would be male. Normally, it is the sperm that decides the gender of the baby. Here Allah made the choice instead.

3) All of the genetic characteristics of Jesus were determined by precisely two parties: Allah and Mary.
This is clear because they were the only two parties involved. So we conclude that Allah and Mary are the only two possible candidates for the title "Father".

Hence it appears legitimate to call Allah the father of Jesus, at least in a figurative sense. Therefore we are at a loss to explain why the Qur'an spends so much space arguing against this. Certainly more and better justification is needed than what appears in these passages:


Surely they lie when they declare: "Allah has begotten children".
-- Sura 37:151
Where is the "lie" in our reasoning above?


They say: "Allah has begotten a Son". Glory be to Him! His is what the heavens and the earth contain; all things are obedient to Him. Creator of the heavens and the earth! When he decrees a thing, He need only say "Be", and it is.
-- Sura 2:116
Allah made Mary pregnant. What more would Allah have to do if he wanted a legitimate son?



Allah forbid that He Himself should beget a son! When He decrees a thing He need only say "Be," and it is. -- Sura 19:35
So is Allah unable to beget a son by saying "Be"?


Say: "If the Lord of Mercy had a son, I would be the first to worship him". -- Sura 43:82
 

I can assure you that even by logic it is easier to understand the bible's position of Jesus than it is to understand the quran's.  May be you would like to take a shot at answering the questions I have raised vis-a-viz the christian position

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #58 on: March 13, 2004, 08:09:24 PM »
Eskimo

na gaya ma kai dan rudu ne amma nagode da kokarin da ka sa.  I am really appreciative of your effort and time on the subject and from what I have read, you have not contradicted any thing I have posted on the issue.

In my posting dated 29/2/04 the fact that the term Trinity in christianity came about only after Christ in about 2AD was alluded to and my posting dated 4/3/04 further gave a background on the term and its origins in christianity.  It was also made clear in the same posting that the term did not exist in the bible. So I suppose we are in agreement, I suggest you read those two postings.

Your posting has provided us of a bit more indepth study of the origin of the term Trinity and the fact that it may have been used by some pagan believes.  But your posting has failed to relate the history of the term, the use of the term by some pagan beliefs, and the use of the term by christians.  As I have said and now repeating Trinity in christianity is a term used to describe the phenomenon of the relationship between God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.  Now this relationship exists in the bible and is well documented there, however this relationship was described only in about 2 AD as the Trinity.  In another 1000 years christianity may use another word to describe this relationship if that word describes the phenomenon of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit better, we do not know but the most important thing is that the relationship itself remains as described in the bible.  I must make it very clear that christians do not worship the Trinity but worship God.

So it would be very helpful if your study can show us that the term Trinity does not adequately describe the relationship of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit as contained in the bible.  Since we are discussing using the bible as our basis, it will be very important to keep the biblical perspective of the issue in focus or else we will end up being very general in our discussion and loose direction.  Once again thank you for your contribution.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barde

I see you made a comment on the fact the Mohammed (SAW) is in the top 100 greatest men in history (or ranked before Jesus), that is a very childish remark, as you have not said how that affects the truth (word of God) or the matter at hand.  Are you trying to say that if in another 1000 years Budiasm or Hinduism out strips Islam in the number of followers and such a book is written ranking either one first then it becomes (or its founder becomes) more credible than islam?  Please man let us be abit more intelligent with our discussion.

You also tried to make an issue with ".... but he rested on the seventh day and was refreshed". Exodus 31:17.  I have indicated to you that you are reading it literally and not looking at the context look carefully, this statement marked the end of creation.  In the bible we have a definite day on which creation came to an end this may be what is causing your confusion since in the quran we are not clear on if the earth was created in 6 days (7:54; 25:59) or 8 days (41:9-12). (or I forgot maybe you know the answer)

Offline Eskimo

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Re: Chriatian Muslim Dialogue
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2004, 01:43:04 PM »
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Eskimo

na gaya ma kai dan rudu ne

It does matter ko rudu ko what ever you call it.

Malam I see that you like making quotes from Quran..althought you said we are looking at things from the christians perspectives.

If I may correct you...Quran made it clear that Jesus is not the son of God. It is not possible for God to beget a Son.

Allah can create a human being in the absence of either or all parents. That is why Quran cites example of Jesus as like Adam. The Later was created without a father or mother. It was just the wish of God when he say Be it will be.

In the case of Jesus God wished to create a human being without a Father and he just say Be and it was.

PLEASE THAT IS THE MESSAGE OF THE QURAN!  So, you have all the rights to dispute it. But you lack the right to misinterpret the quranic meanings. Afterrall we are not looking at it from the muslim perspective.

Quote
Again, a Muslim may say that if we are going to call Jesus the son of Allah, then we should say that Adam is the son of Allah too. No, we cannot compare Adam to Jesus this way because Adam came into existence without a mother.  

Have you forgetten Eve the wife of Adam, whom Allah created without a Mother (from the Ribs of Adam) Going by your argument, we can safely conclude that is the Mother of Eve. Since Adam and God are the only party to her existance.

Quote
2) Allah determined some of the physical characteristics of Jesus  
3) All of the genetic characteristics of Jesus were determined by just two parties: Allah and Mary.

The same thing applies to Adam in the Quran..by extension to Eve also. So that made them children of God! Begotten not made!

Quote
2) Muslims might argue "Being a father implies having sex", and therfore Allah cannot be the father. Not necessarily so. Modern science has brought us "test tube babies", which are conceived without any sex. There is nothing to support the idea that if Allah wants a baby, he must resort to normal human means to have one.  
 

If you could remember I advice to you read well so as to avoid making statements that are historically or scientifically wrong.

In the olden times Biology believes that until there are sperm  and ovary from the male and female of the same specie collected either from sex or in anyway...before you can produce a baby.
But now a days we know that even a cell from a strand of hair can produce a baby! read about genetic Engineering and Cloning. Although I know currently the result of the cloning is the same as the source of the cell ie if the cell is from a female the baby will also be a female (..in that case Jesus would have a female) still there is a possiblity in the future scientist can produce any type of human being from any type of cell!

Even folllowing the conventional biology..Mary and Allah must be of the same specie to produce Jesus. so Mary, Jesus and Allah are of the same Kind! SO ALSO THE FATHER AND MOTHER OF MARY..UPWARD!
color=blue]NOBODY is PERFECT and I am NOBODY.[/color]

 


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