Roman Catholic Church and child sex abuse.

[_Waziri_]

Well Usman,

I do not know whether to accept your definition or assertion of what is a quagmire or not as my position above is very clear. No flat categorisation that all 11 year olds are the same regardless of other psychological and physiological considerations. This is the reason why jurists in Islam do not consider age as a peg but tenure of puberty and peoples culture.

Taking the reality of physiology and psychology  into consideration, we will find ourselves coming out of that flat categorisation. You will discover the truth that individuals differ and in that while some 11 year olds can, relish and exploit the most in the celebration sexual communion, marry, conceive and deliver safely, some cannot. It is therefore my considered opinion that a state will be wrong to peg sex or marriage to every 11 year old is a wrong thing as is obtained in Britain and other Western countries, since  in effect this law leaves them with 93, 000 "under age" mothers yearly, with 8000 below 16 years of age. I feel with these numbers I will be justified in my claim even when others find it an article of faith to disagree with me on anything debate under the sun.

Yes, there is a wide gap of difference between giving an 11 year old, who can willingly and joyfully give herself unto sex, into marriage  and forcing her into marriage. The gap is like two consenting adults having sex and one forcing the other into it.


You may claim that my information about Bushes is not correct even when you do not provide a source of your data though you may rightly claim that I did not do so either. But the truth of the matter is: Albayanu lil mudaiy wal yaminu alaa man ankara

Even if we do not find it easy agreeing on that I can find it exteremely pleasurable to tell the public how my mother married my father while she was 14 years of age. We are now 15 children out of her womb with my self being the 9th. But  within all these years she has never had cause to go to hospital before delivery, every thing used to be at home. My mother is now eighty years old and is still strong just like Aisha the wife of the Holy Prophet who married him at the of 9 according to some records and was able live another 73 years in good health.

Finally, it is important for us always to to try to increase the region of our mental independence by always putting every idea coming from the West or our mediaval past.

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[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

I find Waziri's views on this matter utterly repugnant. They belong to a savage age which we should have left well behind.
A girl of 11 years has sexual organs fairly well developed so it is possible to have sex with her. She is however still a child and not yet fully grown in any of her organs so though some may find the sexual experience acceptable  many will not and many will find it very difficult, painful and mentally traumatic.
I don't suppose that matters at all to some men.
(The difference beween a girl at 11 who is still a child and a girl at 14 who is probably physically an adult is very plain).
In Scotland traditionally a girl could marry at 14 (and a young man at 16) though this has been made 16 yrs for both.
If you have sex with a 11 year old girl in UK you will go to jail for a very long time.
When I was in Kano I helped raise money for a clinic being run near Katsina by a Dutch doctor who was doing reconstructive surgery on little girls who had been married at ten or eleven, had been made pregnant and who had been ripped apart in the vaginal area in giving birth before they were fully developed in that area. He was doing thirty to forty operations a week and was running also a hostel which housed up to sixty of these little girls awaiting help. Most of them hasd been thrown out by their "husbands" because they smelled badly from a constant running issue from their wounded organs.
That is the disgusting reality of having sex with little children.
I would like to be assured that progressive elements in Nigerian society do not find Waziri's views acceptable.

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[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

I presume the readers of this forum will understand what "thingy" means in the context of my post. I used the correct term for the female sexual organ in the post which was not indecent in any way so I don't understand why it was replaced with the word "thingy".  Surely  when a matter is being seriously discussed it is appropriate to use the correct terminology.

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[moray]

This discussion has shown me that evil happens in all religions. However, at least the Muslims are accepting that bad things are happening and they are trying to do something about it. I wish the catholic church would learn from them.

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[_Waziri_]

I would like to be assured that progressive elements in Nigerian society do not find Waziri's views acceptable.

Well I think this kind of label Mr. Hill peg on people is part of the problem of every discussion. It should be understood that an idea is an idea in as much as it can be substantiated and  prove beneficial to people, NOT necessarily labeled progressive or savage.

What I said is clear NO FLAT CATEGORISATION. I believe while some 11 year olds can conceive leading to safe delivery some cannot. But this is different from believing that ALL cannot or ALL can. This is the premise of the discourse. We have our societal norms and values and it is that which can be supported based on scientific realities that we are not ready to compromise. So Britain can have her laws and let us have our own.

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[moray]

This is supposed to be a discussion about the Catholic Church and Child Abuse. Could the other people who are discussing child brides and underage sex please start your own discussion group.

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[kitkat]

I presume the readers of this forum will understand what "thingy" means in the context of my post. I used the correct term for the female sexual organ in the post which was not indecent in any way so I don't understand why it was replaced with the word "thingy".  Surely  when a matter is being seriously discussed it is appropriate to use the correct terminology.

I believe the forum software is responsible for replacing certain words not admin. I found out that you cant even even write Phagge (as in the area in kano) with an "fa" without running foul of the built in censor

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[mallamt]

moray

the problem is that you made a very sweeping and prejudicial statement on catholics, that is why you are getting the type of response you are getting and also they may appear not to be addressing the issue you are raising.  You have to provide with your statement, facts and figures.  For instance what is child abuse? what are the different types of child abuses that can take place and which is specifically your interest? how many catholic priests are there in nigeria?, how many cases of child abuse have been recorded?, what internal policy/document or statement of the catholic church in nigeria sets out to hide/suppress child abuse in the catholic church? on what basis can you say that muslims do not hide/suppress abuse in nigeria? how many cases of child abuse do we have in nigeria amongst muslims? what % of child abuse cases do they constitute?

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[moray]

mallamt,
Please read my messages before you respond to me. I never said I knew how many priests and nuns abused children in Nigeria, for all I know they may all be innocent. However, if you had asked a similar question in America or Ireland 15 years ago, you would believe all the clergy there were innocent. The catholic church only reacted to outside pressure, they are unable or unwilling to police themselves. I know Nigerian christians are very religious, so if the catholic church is doing evil, it will not be stopped by catholics.
Also, I have no knowledge of muslims, but from what I have learned on this message board, I know there are sinners in Islam, but there are also muslims who are trying to stop it. Catholics could learn from this.

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[moray]

If the victims of abuse by catholic clergy cannot get justice in Nigeria and it seems they never will, then perhaps they can seek redress in other countries. If the victims can prove they were abused by foreign missionaries who worked in Nigeria, then perhaps they can bring civil actions against those clergy in their own countries. If for example an Irish missionary abused a child in Nigeria and then returned to Ireland, they could be prosecuted under Irish law. The same goes for an American missionary. If someone who reads this was a victim, I would advise them to contact the Irish or American embassy, to get a list of solicitors that can help in those countries, or simply to get advice.

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[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

You appear to be completely fixated on this issue. Were you abused by a Roman Catholic clergy?

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[moray]

If anyone is interested, I have pasted a news article below regarding an evil man who abused children in Ghana, but was arrested and jailed in Britain under British law. So you see, it is possible for non Nigerians who abuse Nigerian children to be punished in their own countries. Of course it would be better if they were tried and punished in Nigeria, but if you people don't love your children enough to do this, then at least the victims can still get justice.


"LONDON (Reuters) - A 56-year-old man described by prosecutors as the worst "sex tourist" ever to be tried in London was jailed on Friday for abusing boys in Africa and the Britain.

Alexander Kilpatrick was given an open-ended sentence at Middlesex Guildhall Crown Court after he pleaded guilty to 16 charges ranging from possession of indecent images to rape of a child under 13 years.

Judge Roger Chapple placed no limit on the sentence to protect the public, police said.

Kilpatrick must serve a minimum of five years and four months before he can be considered for parole and can then only be released when he is no longer considered dangerous.

"He will be monitored, should he ever be released from prison, for the rest of his life," Detective Sergeant Nick Duffield said outside the court.

Police said Kilpatrick had sexually abused two 12-year-old local boys in Ghana while visiting a relative in the west African country during 2004 and 2005.

They said he also committed further sexual offences against another 12-year-old boy over a period of weeks in Staffordshire.

Customs officers arrested Kilpatrick in May 2005 at Heathrow Airport as he returned from Ghana after they found indecent images of children in his luggage.

The Crown Prosecution Service believed Kilpatrick to be the worst sex tourist ever to be prosecuted in London, police said."

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[mallamt]

I believe we can get hundreds of such stories on thw behaviour of some people in africa, but what I do not see is 1) the connection with the ctholic church in nigeria 2) what about the questiona sked by Dave how does this in put answer the question raised by Dave?

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[Dave_McEwan_Hill]

These evil people are to be found in every country. Many travel from Europe and America because they can do what they like in to children in parts of Africa and the Far East but they would be jailed for many years in their own countries if they did the same.
Perhaps Moray should also pay some attention to the fact that in some African countries many children are kidnapped and sacrificed for ritual circumstances and that this is even happening in London. At the moment the London Police are trailing a group of mainly Nigerians who have killed and dismembered children in London.
A bit worse than sexual abuse I think but I would not blame "Nigeria" for it.
Can we concentrate on the good in the world and the hope I will always cling to that  one day "Man to man the world over will brothers be, for a' that" in the words of Robert Burns, Scotland and the worlds national poet.

Dave McEwan Hill

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[moray]

To Dave McEwan Hill,

I cannot believe you said what you did.

I am trying to raise the issue of child abuse in Nigeria. What is your response.
You ask if I have some psychological problems, am I fixated, was I abused by a child. Either deal with the issue or keep quiet.
The question I have for you is why do you attack me personally?

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