KanoOnline.com Forum

Source: CNN.com
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? TRANSCRIPTS
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?November 26, 2002





DR. IBRAHIM DATTI AHMED,
SUPREME COUNCIL FOR SHARIA IN NIGERIA:




Q&A WITH ZAIN VERJEE

Q&A

Aired November 25, 2002 - 12:30:00 ? ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN MANN, CNN ANCHOR: Miss World organizers and contestants arrive in London, the new location of the contest.

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN ANCHOR: What the pageant left behind in Nigeria was anything but beautiful.

MANN: Days of sectarian rioting left hundreds of people dead, hundreds more wounded.

VERJEE: While some first blamed the pageant for the violence others say it had nothing to do with it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I'm personally against women showing that they are so beautiful.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is no link between what is going on in Kaduna and the Miss World, the hosting of Miss World.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We lost a great opportunity to showcase Nigeria to the world.

BEN MURRAY-BRUCE: There truly was an article in a publication that suggested if prophet Muhammad was alive, he would take one of the contestants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's definitely a contradiction between what is happening between Sharia laws in the north of the country and federal laws in, you know, operated by the government of Nigeria.

MANN: On this edition of Q&A, sending the women away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERJEE: Welcome to Q&A.

Today, Nigeria picks up the pieces after days of rioting, and after Miss World contestants and organizers left for London.

MANN: It's been a litany of controversy. Some contestants initially boycotted the contest in Nigeria, protesting against the Sharia law death sentence of a woman who had a child outside of wedlock.

VERJEE: Then violence in the north after a newspaper suggested the prophet Muhammad would consider marrying one of the contestants.

MANN: Organizers of the Miss World Pageant deny responsibility for what happened in Nigeria.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIA WORLEY, MISS WORLD PRESIDENT: I respect the villagers, but I can't be responsible for them, and neither can you, and neither can someone like a journalist making a frivolous, as he thought it, remark, which has caused him to be imprisoned and for people to burn down his building.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VERJEE: Riots have certainly left Nigeria reeling from recent events. How does Nigeria move forward?

With us, from Abuja, the president of Nigeria, Olusegun Obasanjo.

Mr. Obasanjo, it's a pleasure to have you join Jonathan and I here on Q&A.

Who do you think bears responsibility for what happened in Nigeria?

OLUSEGUN OBASANJO, PRESIDENT OF NIGERIA: Well, I will say, irresponsible journalism in Nigeria bears responsibility for what happened in Nigeria.

What happened in Nigeria obviously could have happened at any time that such sensitive and irresponsible remarks is made, at a time like this -- particularly at a time like this, in Nigeria.

Ramadan is regarded as holy month for all Muslims and it's a period of (UNINTELLIGIBLE), a period of fasting, a period of prayer, a period when they (UNINTELLIGIBLE) socially (UNINTELLIGIBLE). And then those of their brothers and sisters must also respect their sensitivities and their sensibilities.

That's -- Nigerian people did not regard that. It caused what we have now so far in the country.

VERJEE: President Obasanjo, was it just bad journalism, or was it an opportunity exploited by your own political opponents to embarrass you, to embarrass your government, to embarrass the country?

OBASANJO: Well, I will not say that there is absolutely no political undertone. But every political opponent, as you put them, of mine, or political opponent of Nigeria, or those who do not wish Nigeria well, do not have a excuse, they were not given opportunity -- they have no opportunity to take or excuse to cause the destruction that has been caused.

MANN: And yet there are some people, Mr. President, who say that the base problem is the introduction of Sharia law in the north of your country and in areas, like Kaduna, that are mixed between Muslims and Christians. Was this an explosion that was waiting to happen again?

OBASANJO: Not really. Sharia has always maintained, and I (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- Sharia has been part of our unique experience in Nigeria where we have lived together as Christians and Muslims. And Sharia law is not the first -- this is not the first time it will be part of our law. It has always been, what we call penal code in the north was in fact Sharia law, and there are still parts of the north where that is the law of the land.

And in 1979, we even put in our constitution a Sharia court of appeals for the first time. So Sharia is not a new thing in our constitution or in our law. But what is a new thing is what I'll call, what people call freedom of the press, which I call license, and license to be insensitive, to show no consideration for other people's feelings and other people's way of life, to show no respect.

That I cannot accept, the way that journalists or pressmen or women should conduct their affairs in this land.

VERJEE: President Obasanjo, there are many Nigerians that look at you, that look at your leadership and say, Olusegun Obasanjo has failed to provide the powerful leadership that's needed to prevent the application of Sharia law in your country. How do you respond to that?

OBASANJO: I will respond to that by saying we are practicing a federal form, a federal system of government in this land, and we deliberately went for a federal system of government because of our diversity. And anybody who tries to impose a unitary form of government in this country will destroy this country overnight. That has been tried before, and it did not work.

Federalism, true federalism, means that each component, each part of the federation, has power within the constitution to make its own laws and to implement its own laws, and that is what we have.

Now, those who do not know that -- and I believe that a country like the United States of America, like Australia, who practice federal system of government, know that each state has the power to make their own laws, they have their parliament, and they have their executive, their governor, or whatever they call their elected executive officer.

And that's what we have here. So provided the man or the executive officer of a state lives within the constitution of the land, it can do what it wishes to do within that constitution.

MANN: Mr. President, you speak very eloquently of the constitution. Let me ask you about something else -- not about the law, but to your mind about justice. Nigeria is becoming a country where a woman who is pregnant and is accused of adultery can be stoned to death, while the man who is accused of the adulterous relationship with her would have to have been physically witnessed by four adult males in order to suffer the same punishment.

The women who are being singled out for this kind of charge, for these accusations, they tend to be, as you know, poor. They tend to be badly represented in court, and the impression that the rest of the world has is that despite Nigeria having signed international conventions against torture, things like flogging, stoning and amputations are coming to Nigeria when most countries of the world, most Muslim countries of the world, do not use them; they've abandoned them.

Nigeria, under your leadership, joins countries, very few countries, like Iran, Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan under the Taliban, to favor these kinds of punishments.

OBASANJO: Well, part of the state of Nigeria has gone for -- unfortunately, I will say, as you rightly said -- for this aspect of Islamic law, which the highly Muslim leaders and politicians in this country have not gone for.

Now, accept somebody who (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and we have the law that can deal with that, receives this, as an issue (UNINTELLIGIBLE) our fundamental rights.

Now, there's no way by which I can go to our court and say somebody else's fundamental rights have been breached or have been abrogated. Now, I agree with you, it is part of injustice that two people should join together to commit a crime and one should be singled out for punishment, although no such punishment has ever been carried out in Nigeria, and I have said to the world that under no circumstances will such punishment be carried out in Nigeria, because we have a system of appeal in our courts that will carry this to the highest court of appeal in the land, which is Supreme Court.

But with an individual does not raise the issue of breaching of his fundamental rights, nobody else can raise it for him. But if you go to court and then you do not bet justice, other people can help you with the legal system to have justice at the highest court in the land.

MANN: Mr. President, as you know, people in Nigeria are having their limbs amputated. They are being flogged. Are you undertaking now, is this your vow that there will be no stonings under the terms of Hajj judgments issued by Sharia courts?

OBASANJO: I've said that before, and I say that again, with all the emphasis I can put forth, because once you go to court for that, you will get the federal government to back you up with the -- and you have other institutions in the land to back you up with appeal to the highest court in the land.

VERJEE: President Obasanjo, what we saw over the last few days, the rioting, the killings, the burning, in your country, that caused the Miss World Beauty Pageant to be shifted from Nigeria -- many observers say that everything that happened in Nigeria, we need to understand it through the domestic political context in Nigeria today, and all of this was just pre- election ploys. Is that how we should see this?

OBASANJO: No, I don't believe that. We had conflict and destruction in the year 2000, before the advent of this administration. We have had conflict and destruction in Nigeria, we have had civil war in Nigeria. They are not pre-election ploys when they happen, and this administration is making every effort to insure that we have reasonably free, fair and violence-free elections.

And I give that commitment also to Nigerians and to the world.

VERJEE: President -- you give that commitment, Mr. President, but what many say, you have given no commitment to release a firm electoral calendar. Many saying that the fact that you haven't nailed down a specific date, meaning the people behind the scenes, your opponents, some within your own party that have fallen out with you, are positioning themselves. There's a lot of jockeying going on. And what many say is President Obasanjo needs to nail down dates.

OBASANJO: Dates for what? Nail down dates for what?

As far as the form for election is concerned, the amount of money that the Independent National Electoral Commission asked for has been relieved by me, and even today I called the secretary of that organization, and the secretary of that organization came to talk to me, that the money that I has been relieved by me, he has been told to come and collect the AIT, authority to spend money, authority to spend the money.

And (UNINTELLIGIBLE) has happened, I wonder what you're talking about. And I don't know what date you are asking me to nail, because I don't nail dates, and.

(CROSSTALK)

VERJEE: Well, that's what many are saying is part of the problem here, President Obasanjo. Many say that part of the problem here is that there is a deadline for the elections next year, and you are not laying out a specific electoral timetable, and that is what is causing part of the problem.

OBASANJO: Again, that is wrong. We have an Independent Electoral Commission, which is given the responsibility to lay down the dates, to lay down the rules. I don't lay down the rules.

If I have to lay down the rules and I have to participate in the election, then where is the independence? Am I independent to lay down the rules to favor myself? Now that's why we have an Independent Electoral Commission, which lays down the rules for both the incumbent and the incoming, and that is what we have, and that organization is already laying down the rules.

MANN: Mr. President, I wonder if we could turn from politics to something that seems.

OBASANJO: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MANN: I wonder if we could turn to something that seemed much less serious when all of this began, and that is the Miss World contest. Are you sorry that that organization and those women ever journeyed to Nigeria?

OBASANJO: No, I wasn't sorry that they journeyed to Nigeria. I was sorry that they had to leave Nigeria, because they were guests within our gates, and we did everything that is possible to show that we are good hosts and hostesses in Nigeria. And from their own testimony, you can see that they have not been (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for the way they have been received, for the way they have been conducted around in Nigeria. What they are saying of Nigeria, in fact, may be (UNINTELLIGIBLE) do not wish us well, internally and externally, and there are many like that, because Julia Worley, who is the organizer of this, said even before they came to Nigeria, she was under tremendous pressure not to come to Nigeria, and she said there was almost an international conspiracy against Nigeria.

Now why should I be sorry, if that is the situation? I'm only sorry that we have done our best, and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) under control may (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to leave, and we regret that they had to leave, but we are happy that we have done our best.

VERJEE: OK. Olusegun Obasanjo, Nigeria's president, speaking to us from Abuja. Thank you for speaking to us on Q&A. Appreciate it.

MANN: We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MANN: Welcome back to our look at the Miss World Pageant and the terrible, terrible violence in Nigeria.

VERJEE: Let's go now to Kana in Nigeria, where we have Dr. Ibrahim Datti Ahmed, the president of the Supreme Council for Sharia in Nigeria. He's with us on the line.

Mr. Ahmed, thanks for joining us on this show.

How do you explain what happened, particularly in the context, as we look at it, Sharia law?

IBRAHIM DATTI AHMED, SUPREME COUNCIL FOR SHARIA IN NIGERIA: Well, as you know, you have just interviewed President Olusegun Obasanjo. He has given you the background of what happened.

There was an announcement that there was going to be Miss World Pageant in Nigeria during Ramadan, and the Muslims in Nigeria protested on two grounds.

VERJEE: So, are we to see this then as purely a religious point? A pure rejection of the very notion of having a pageant in the country, purely on religious grounds?

AHMED: Yes. From our own angle, it is strictly on religious grounds, religious and moral grounds.

It is not just a pageant; it is a beauty contest of young women parading themselves half-naked, and this is totally contrary to the provisions of Sharia, which we are practicing in Nigeria.

MANN: It's ironic, doctor, because those very young women, many of them didn't want to come to Nigeria, also on moral grounds. They say that because of judgments by Sharia courts in northern Nigeria, women are treated unfairly and are subject to terrible punishments on very shaky legal grounds. You know about the debate that's gone on surrounding the contest and its presence in Nigeria. What do you say to those women?

AHMED: Well, you know, Jim (sic), the allegation is untrue. But as for the fears of women -- Jonathan, we would have been very happy if they did not come. But the reason for them not coming is certainly untrue.

Women are not being judged on flimsy legal grounds in Nigeria. You need to send somebody to come here and study the system, see the system in operation, meet the proponents of the system and the opponents, and make a decent judgment, because women are not being sentenced on flimsy legal grounds.

Sharia is a well-thought.

VERJEE: OK. Is the woman, Amina Lawal, going to be stoned to death or not?

AHMED: Depends on the final appeal. She has lodged an appeal in court, and in Nigeria when you appeal in Sharia courts, the outcome has to be had to the ultimate conclusion. If the final sentence is confirmed, then of course the sentence will be carried out.

And by the way, Nigeria was only country that is carrying this punishment. We have never heard you, for example, carrying out this kind of serious attack on the system, for example, in other Islamic countries, like Saudi Arabia, who also is a great friend of CNN and the United States.

VERJEE: OK.

MANN: We take your point, Dr. Ibrahim Datti Ahmed, of the Supreme Council for Sharia in Nigeria. Thank you so much for talking with us.

VERJEE: Don't forget to send us your comments by e-mail at YWT@CNN.COM. It would be good to hear from you. Please remember also to include your city and your name.

MANN: That's Q&A for this day. The news continues now on "YOUR WORLD TODAY" right here on CNN.

END



Source: CNN.com
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? TRANSCRIPTS
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?November 26, 2002

u must agree wit' meeh.. that that is one confusin' thingiemajiggie...

nehowzzz... ::) ... May Allah show us the Truth!

Quoteu must agree wit' meeh.. that that is one confusin' thingiemajiggie...

nehowzzz... ::) ... May Allah show us the Truth!

no i don't see anything confusing in this. all of us here should be very ashamed. once again we have disgraced ourselves in the international arena. Let's not even talk about ' western media bias'. many lives and property lost, billions of naira lost to an ill-fated miss world pageant and all OBJ can say is 'irresponsible journalism'! It's obvious we're not yet serious in Nigeria. Unitl we get our house in order, the rest of the world will continue shaking their head at us.

I'd like to add that Julia Worley is Julia Morley actually. SUD, maybe you'd like to modify that?
I almost sympathise with Obasanjo. He comes across that interview as quite a harrassed guy!

When you fail your assignment and you are facing a vocifrerous no-nonsence teacher/father everybody feels sorry for you. 'Huda dont worry the guy has failed his papers. As a leader you need to be predictive and sensitive; you need to be selfless and free of all hatred or ill feeling aginst any of your subjects. Obasanjo has failed as a leader and one very discernible and unfortunate evidence was the Miss World riots which even a Primary School Prefect can predict long before it happened. Unfortunately he wanted to please his wife, her man-friend/associate and the western world. I seriously believe that Obasanjo knew what he was doing but neede to make name as the one that tamed the muslims into accepting nudity as the norm and of course he was punished for it. The prodding CNN journalists put him in a corner and the man could not make one sensless statement.

Compare him with the OBJ that appeared on National TV on Friday after police have contained the Abuja version of the riots. He was full of gusto and was assuring Nigerians that the Show of Shame will continue and assuring the parents of the "commodity sellers" aka beauty queens to be rest assured that they will do everything they can to provide security. We prayed and Allah The Almighty answered, their "Body Parts Trade Fair" wont take place here. Let them take it shove it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and they took it there and guess what a Muslim country won,that what they were saying all over town, in fact in my office they all ganged up to review the thing. I dont care if a Muslim country participated or won that's their problem, as far as i'm concerned that nudity fair wont take place in this Muslim country InshaAllah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AbuMujahid,

Nigeria is NOT a MUSLIM Country! Please modify your statement immediately!

I know and I wont remove it as long as there is one muslim here this is a muslim country, that's what I mean.

QuoteI know and I wont remove it as long as there is one muslim here this is a muslim country, that's what I mean.

:o wow..i guess that settles it. i hope you know that with such a comment you have just vindicated the 'biased' western media all the 'biased' southerners out there.