Author Topic: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery  (Read 35231 times)

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Offline EMTL

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2003, 06:58:45 PM »
Assalamu alaikum,

Eskimo, what i meant is that people should not preponderates their reasoning over Allah's (SWT) injunctions.

EMTL
In the Affairs of People Fear Allah (SWT). In the Matters Relating to Allah (SWT) Do not be Afraid of Anybody. Ibn Katthab (RA).

Offline Waziri

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2003, 04:18:51 PM »
Yes, Mr Fulcher and Al Hamza I think it is hi time we shun aside this verbal tirade and face the real issues. We are no kids. We know how valuable time is. In fact as a matter of principle I do not see any reason why I must respond to everything written by everybody.

Let us all know that in every sincere intellectual discourse issues are dealt with only on the availability of facts and figures while ideas are weighed on how logical and reasonable they are presented. This is the sole reason why I encourage ppl anywhere to comment on things they have adequate information about only, unless if they have questions, then it is fair that they ask.

 Mr Fulcher, I think the paper, though written by an amateur, provides you with some insight into the nature of our problems. True to God, down here leadership and management skills are what we need. Dave been here for some years and I believe if he chose to be sincere on this, he would have no trouble saying it that way.

Everybody here can do very well in his/her job but when it comes to management we record massive failure and unfortunately our governments do not see reason in anyway to invest in human resource development, all we invest in everyday, is man power development which is taking us obviously to nowhere.


Yes! Mr David religion should certainly be a unifying not a dividing factor. This is the sole reason why we are coming up with a new; call it an awakening, in which everybody will see meaning in employing religious laws. After several years of experimentations with secular laws and the employments of reason to resolve issues of metaphysical attributes still man is yet to solve his panging problems. Yes, anywhere in the globe not only Nigeria. We hope we are starting something that will make for international appeal.

For the truth of the matter is no matter how hard one tries, one cannot separate from HIM as a religious person and HIM as a social being. This is the reason why in Europe God was "resurrected" long after philosophers like Frederich Nistche "killed" Him. So we saw how in later years philosophers like Emmanuel Kant came up with strong argument about God and his powers. No way can we keep religion away from this. Of course whenever we keep it out of everything it makes its way of coming back in its characteristics arrogance.

Offline Waziri

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2003, 04:24:58 PM »
Mr. Fulcher, I believe that paper address some questions you raised in your last post like our attitude to work and our poverty in the face of abundant natural resources. Though you did not explain why it is you rant much about gender sensitivity in Muslim countries in spite of the fact that it is only in the Muslims countries that women had the chance of leading in the recent past. This and many other issues I raised you did not address. I did not make arguments about we using West's products, my arguments were Western liberal democracy should not be claiming that it produces science and technology. It is something that can be produced under any system of governance. In fact Islamic and other civilisations have had the chance of leading the world of science before. Simple.
 
I dunno, but Mr. Fulcher don't you think that in times to come Muslims can take back the leadership of the world from the West?

Have you ever asked yourself the one question as to why civilisations crumble? Persia gave way to Greek to Babylonia to Rome to Islam and to the present West again. Don't you think the seat of power can change to anywhere?

Yes, divine injunctions are interpreted by humans and therefore may be defective. This nobody contradicted. Nobody says we should consume whatever clerics say hook, line and sinker. Religious ppl in America may have that paradigm but in Islam it has never been so. In the Islamic world it is understood that reason and revelation are twin brothers just as man is a combination of emotions and intellect.

 In fact three centuries back I have records of the works of my grand parents. My family were jurists for the past 300 years. These ppl studied Aristotle, Plato, Socrates and other Greek philosophers. I on my part came to know Aristotle and Plato as Aristotalis and Aflatoun respectively long before I come across them in western literature. They studied logic, astronomy and mathematics. Science is and has never been new to Islam.

Concerning Amina Lawal, Mr. Fulcher, I think I elaborated on the circumstances and I explained our philosophy of law. I tell you Mr Fulcher laws in your countries too do not take ignorance to be excuse. The man certainly denied it and we have no reason to believe that he lied in anyway. And if she too could tell lies we would believe her and let her go absolved. This is the philosophy in our world.

Ah! Mr Fulcher don't you think the world would be a happier place if in anything we did we were content to take ppl by their words?

In Nigeria not every body is a Muslim as a result Muslim law do not apply to every body unlike Saudi Arabia where virtually every body is a Muslim. Therefore when they choose to apply it to everybody I think they are being fair. Because one cannot come to USA and demand that he be treated in courts of law with the laws of his own country. Actually what intrigues me most, is why is it that Americans are yet to stop going to Saudi Arabia? When it comes to Nigeria you say it is the laws of stoning to death but yet Saudi is yet to become a no go area.
 
Clinton lied under oath and that was why they tried impeaching him but why was it he had to lie under oath in order to cover a crime of adultery?

 Certainly the crime must be more criminal than the lie.

The ppl of Saudi have poor attitude to work. But I assure you today, remove the monarchy and replace it with better set up of government and see what will turn of them. Have you ever thought of why America is not putting pressure on the Arab nations to substitute their monarchy with democracy? If these countries would have ppl-oriented governments America will never continue to have what it wants from them. And they would be more Islamic than they are now.

You see America intervened in the Second World War mainly because it was a war of ideologies. If Hitler had conquered Europe the next thing would be America as such he was better not.

In Rwanda and Liberia it was the story of weapons sold by the Western governments where the investments have already yielded enough profit. In South Africa if I can still remember all sanctions were put under the umbrella of United Nations. But true to God as the present UN secretary would say "America is the richest country in the world but yet the least generous."

Mr Fulcher, forget about those ppl who talk about us the way they do in Yahoo Forums. Everything of ours is not without reason; we have our philosophy, which is a time more cogent than that of the West. They really cannot change us, No matter how. My problem with the West now is its maximum intolerance, it insists on conquering everywhere with its ideology. It insists that everybody must see things the way it sees it after all the truth is every civilisation even that of Islam has had reason to understand that others who differ from them have the RIGHT to exist. Were Muslims this intolerant the West today would not have reached where it is.

I will only here repeat as my conclusion what I said in my first contribution to this debate:

"The West should live us alone, let it not fight our ideologies and ways of life, let it allow us control our politics; this millennium is the millennium of Islamic virtues and moral values. Let it remember that we have survived the cruelties of communism. If it cannot remember, at least, let it know that we are still around."

Offline Waziri

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2003, 09:34:04 PM »
Quote

Brother Waziri, thanks for your advice...but know that I am a very strict muslim who believe in only what Allah and his messenger said and command...with no consideration to any human interpretation be it Imamul Madhhab...or whoever...and since I find it difficult to ascertain the authenticity of some hadith I simply refer any Hadith to the text of Holy Quran..if Quran is silent over the issue I follow Hadith...if there is any contradiction no matter how little i discard the hadith even if it be from Bukhari...or anyone...
:D


Yes, this  is true, and I think every sincere Muslim around here is a strict Muslim. We too believe only in what Allah says and His apostle. or have you ever noticed us saying that we should leave what Allah  aand His apostle says?

In our defence did we ever say it  was this Mallam or that Mallam who says?

Or what is it we used to correct Yusuf Ali? Was it not the word of the apostle?

Pls learn to be fair to us if you are really sincere.

Okay which Hadith have we used that contradicted Qur'an?

Okay, Prophet stoned adulterers but you said it was "PROBABLY" before the revelation of Suratul NUR. We say we don't want "Probably or "could it be" we want what is actual and certain. Pls for Allah's sake who is more scientific than who?

Okay you quoted Umar as saying:


"I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book,..."

In the logic you do at school do that mean the issue was controversial since then?

And to be precise did I raise the issue of AMINA LAWAL here?

Are we not trying to look into the issue of stoning in the Qur'an?

Pls do not be pushing words into one's mouth.

Amina Lawal ffor your informaation was not convicted for having PREGNANCY, NO, but for confessingg  that she commited adultery. Pls learn to be current on these things before you start speaking.

Let us all know that law in Islam is a fieeld  of its own we cannot just be flucking verses from qur'an anyhow to claim that we are true Muslim. Let us learn how to study these things the way they are.

Offline Eskimo

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2003, 12:26:30 PM »
Waziri, you get me wrong. I am not in anyway trying to put words into your mouth...but all the same if you are in anyway offended I really regret it.

By quoti8ng Umar (RTA) I was just trying  to illustrate that (going by that hadith) there could be a verse in holy Quran that talked about stonning but that verse is no more there. it could be abrogated.

I may be wrong, but then know I am just an almajiri in that matter. Believe me I learnt alot from this ongoing and the previous discussion esp from YOU.
color=blue]NOBODY is PERFECT and I am NOBODY.[/color]

Offline Jack_Fulcher

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2003, 11:26:54 PM »
Mr. Waziri,

I finally have time to reply to your post of 9/15.  Your first criticism of my post (the last one in the "is death penalty obsolete?" thread) is that I "rant" about gender sensitivities in Muslim countries while they are more likely to have had women leaders in recent years.  I agreed with you that the United States has not had a woman president, but that we are working on it (who knows, maybe Hillary Clinton??).  However, Muslim countries are not the only ones with women presidents - certainly Britain, India, and Israel come to mind.  However, women presidents are a rarity everywhere, and we need to get women into government at all levels.  I hope you are not suggesting that Muslim countries, where women are forbidden to drive, are forbidden to go out of the house without a male relative, and who are required to cover themselves in public, encourage women to become leaders.  That would be disingenuous of you.  Where are your women judges, women mayors, women clerics?  The United States has all of these.

I also hope you are not saying that, when I say that women should be treated equally by the laws, this is a rant.  Where is your humanity, sir?  When I say that it is obscene when Amina is condemned to death because she told the truth, while the father of the baby is set free because he lied, that is not a rant, sir.  You seem to defend this practice of encouraging lying by the faithful Muslims.  Can you not see how this looks to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of logic?  When I say that it is obscene that a woman needs four witnesses to a rape, and if she does not she is condemned by the courts if she dares to report the rape, this is not a rant, it is simple human logic.  How many of you big, strong Muslim men have raped a woman and have gotten away with it because it would have been impossible to report it under your laws?  Oh, that is right, you cannot answer truthfully because Shariah laws encourage you to lie.  Is that not true, Mr. Waziri?

My purpose here is to tell you how the rest of the world sees your actions regarding this poor woman.  This may be an obscure reference except to the history buffs out there, but in 1968 the Democratic Party had a convention in Chicago.  Several of us went there to demonstrate against the war in Viet Nam, and the mayor of Chicago wanted us to go away, so he had the police there beat several of us up, hoping that we would be scared and run away.  However, much of this was caught by the television cameras, and we came up with the slogan "The whole world is watching!"  We continued to chant this as we demonstrated, and this is what I chant to you, Mr. Waziri:  The whole world is watching!

I think that the only rant in these discussions is the one that says "Leave us alone!  It is none of your business what we do with our women or other followers of our faith.  We will mutilate their genitals if we wish.  If they commit adultry we will kill them, if they leave the faith we will kill them, and you arrogant Westerners can do nothing about it."  That is the rant of several on this board, and there is nothing more arrogant than this rant.  Suppose that the Germans had said to us, "We will do whatever we want to do to the Jews, Poles, Gypsies, handicapped, and social outcasts.  If we want to kill them all, we will, and it is none of the business of the rest of the world if we do."  It would have been obscene if the rest of the world had not done something.  I know that there is some sentiment on this board that Hitler was right, which disturbs me.  I have read a couple of posts that say that Hitler had the right idea regarding the Jews, but I hope that this is a minority opinion in Nigeria.

Regardless, it is important to remember that the whole world is watching, and that I will not be surprised if it takes some action if this sentence is carried out.  That is why I make reference to the opinions expressed on the Yahoo boards, because these are the people who you have to worry about.  Remember that we imposed economic sanctions on South Africa because of their Apartheid laws, and I would expect that sanctions would be the likely first step by Western nations.  If the Yahoo board people had their way, it would be followed by military invasion.

I agree with you, Mr. Waziri, that it is entirely possible that the leadership of the world could go to the Islamic countries in the future.  Certainly no country has had a monopoly on world leadership, as you point out.  However, the Islamic countries must prove to the rest of the world that they have a better way of doing things.  If they develop their economies and technologies such that they overtake the West, they will succeed.  If they just sit around and say Go Away! and whine about what the US and Israel have done to them in the past, they will get nowhere.  I agree that my country has done bad things to you, and that Israel is out of control.  However, whining about the unfairness of it all is not the way to solve the problem.  Get strong: educate yourselves, work hard, and work smart.  I agree that technologies and science flourished at one time, hundreds of years ago, in Arabia and the East.  You make reference to your own family and their great achievements, and I am impressed.  

However, you speak of glories in the past.  What have your cultures developed in the last 20 years?  Tell me about the great medicines and inventions that have come out of your cultures in the last 20 years.  We both know that there have been very few of these, that the vast majority of new developments have come from the West.  This does not have to be the case.  You are an intelligent people and have great potential, but you need to push yourselves to regain your position in the world.  All the rest of the world sees is how you treat the weak among you.  This is not good.

Some additional points that you raised:  We do not go to Saudi Arabia except to work there.  Many Westerners are hired by the Saudis to extract and develop their oil, and some work in their financial sector.  However, Saudi Arabia is not a big tourist destination for Americans.  We are advised by our state department to stay out unless we are there to work, because their laws make it an uncomfortable place to visit.

Clinton lied about adultry under oath, not because adultry is a crime in the US (it is not), but because he is a politician who knows that many people in the US think that adultry is a very bad thing, especially for his wife.  That is why he lied under oath.  He thought he could get away with it, because he has been getting away with it for years.  Our political pundits say that he has a "zipper problem."

You are correct that we have supported monarchies and dictatorships in oil-producing Arab states.  And you are also correct that this is because we want their oil.  No question about it.  However, it IS their oil and country, so why do the people put up with it?  Are they lazy?  Greedy?  We had to kick the English out of America in 1776, and we did not just sit around and whine about it.  Do something!  The West sells you guns, so you have problems?  Stop using the guns.  Grow up and take control of your lives.  I doubt that the Saudis would become hard working people just by removing the monarchy - I do not see other Arab countries working hard, even though they have some sort of democracy.  We give $3 billion every year to Egypt, yet what have they done with this money?  I would expect a great economy in that part of the world, yet I see very little.  Blaming others for your problems is an old trick used by your leaders to keep in power, but you need to ask them why they do not do things that will lead to improvement in your own lives.  Emphasize education, technology, and work, not isolation and blaming others.

Too much writing, as usual.  Sorry if there are any typos.  Back to work. ;D  Bye for now.  

Jack

Offline al_hamza

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2003, 03:19:33 PM »
that same Umar (R.T.A) that eskimo speaks of,
do you know that his son was caught drinking?
and as the punishment is 100 lashes, the Second Khalifa Umar (R.T.A) asked him to be lashed (the son) and upon the 80th Lash the son died, and Umar (R.T.A) ordered for the lashes to be completed, so that no one would say the son of the Khalifa got better treatment!
ALLAH-AKBAR! I WISH THOSE DAYS COULD COME BACK
ABILUNAH? SABILUNAH? AL-JIHAD! AL-JIHAD!

Offline Ummulhuda

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2003, 04:30:49 PM »
Salaam everyone. Below is taken from Waziri's post:

The word "Zina" in Arabic or in Hausa, which is also used in the verses talking about fornication in the Qur'an, does not differentiate between adultery and fornication in its etymology. When we say someone is doing zina we always need to elaborate and specify by using a qualifier for it to be adultery or fornication. This has always been our dilemma whenever we are making translations of the Qur'anic verses. And this aspect is what has been revised in the translation of Abdullahi Yusuf Ali. The "zina" referred to in that verse means only FORNICATION not ADULTERY. Yusuf Ali surely made the mistake of translating it to mean adultery.
 
This understanding is informed by the specification given by the Prophet on another Hadith, which outlined the three offences on which when committed, capital punishment is passed. When he mentioned "Zaniy" which means the subject who commits "Zina" he qualified it with "Sayyibu" which meant "a married man". This automatically shows that "Zina" as said in Suratul Nur is restricted to fornication.
.................................................................................
 I'd like to ask Waziri that if the Qur'an does not differentiate between the fornicator and adulterer in the use of the word 'zina' then isnt it a likelihood that the word as a verb or noun qualifies to be used for both the adulterer and the fornicator? Should it be a dilemma? The best thing to do under the circustances would be to see how the Prophet salaam interpreted the word in conjunction with the adulterer or fornicator.
We don't have to agree on anybody's interpretation of it except the Prophet Salaam because only he was referred to by the Al Mighty as the one whose life and deeds should set an example for others to follow. Therefore although you may think that Yusuf Ali made a mistake in the translation by translating zaniy as 'adulterer' instead of 'fornicator', that may not necessarily be so, just like Dr. Taqiuddeen Al-Hilaliy's translation of 'zaniy' as 'fornicator' instead of 'adulterer' may be open to question.
Because the Prophet qualified the word Zaniy with Sayyibu to mean a married man still does not make the word zina and the injunctions that follow in Sur Nur, applicable in the context of fornicators only.
It is like interpreting the words 'Sittati Ayyamin' which in most translations of the Qur'an mean six days but which can equally mean six periods and in both cases the interpretations are correct, depending on whether you are looking at time in the divine context or from a human perspective.
Another thing. Don't be too dismissive of Dr. Saleem's arguments. Since by your own admission you have not read his articles (nor his book for that matter) then you should reserve your judgement until you do so. His articles on Amina Lawal are easily accessible from Gamji Website.

Offline nura

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2003, 05:50:08 PM »
Peace be upon everybody

I have not made any contribution in this forum for a long time. Because the topics and discussants were as I felt then childish and immature. As a guest I noticed this topic and when I read it and saw some very grown up and really young people making sensible contributions i felt it is time to visit the forum again as me so I logged on.

I want to reet Mr. Fulcher and Mr. Hill and also my brothers an sisters who ave been very active and very educating. Believe me no matter how much you know you cant say you have not learnt anything here. Lionger, Ummita, AlHamza Hiya! Long time.

Now to the issue at hand. I am going to start with Eskimo! You cant divorce Ahadith and be a committed and good muslim! You cannot say that every Hadith is bad, wrong or doubtful may be that's why Waziri invited you to join him in discussing the sciece of hadith. Wallah Imam Buhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi and the rest of the collectors of Hadith have done alot to sieved bad and wrongful hadith and I swear to you they have done a big service to Islam if not I dont know how you'll be able to pray or observe most religious duties. And if I may ask you how do you know that the Qur'an you are using is authentic? The same people that transmitted the Hadith are those that passed the Qur'an fro one generation to the other. I happened to see one of the oldest Qur'ans in Nigeria and I swear to you you'll be bored if you wait to listen to the list of the people it passed through before it reached here. And this Qur'an was copied long after Imam Bukhari and there is no difference with the curren one. My point here is if people that come long after Buhari are this honest what about the Buhari generation?

And Islam permits independent judgement but to be honest with you one needs a lot of knowledge to do that. You'll agree with me that if every muslim will judge independently then we are definitely going to have over 1 billion Islams. I tottaly disagree with your asertion that the Aya's in Surah Nur aborrogated the stonning for the following reasons:

1. I think Abdullahi Yusuf Ali is a Western appologist, check his translation/commentry in respect of usury and paradise. He is like trying to make up for the mordernisation, justifying usury and that there is no women dwelling in paradise. He is one of those  who tried to explain the birds that were sent with fire from hell against the people of Abaraha to be a plague that affected the people and killed them.

2. In the same Surah Nur there is another verse about the zanes and zaneeyats and it said that Let the Zanees marry no one but the zaneeyahs ....... If Zanee means adulterer then is the verse talking about a subsequent marriage? I believe Zanee in this aya is mainly refering to fornicators not Adulterers.

And please Eskimo dont read peripherrally go deep. Dont concentrate on Abdullahi Yusuf Ali's translation try your hands on the translated Ibn Katheer's Tafsir of the Qur'an. Remember there are  3 types of Tafseer: Tafseeral Qur'an by Qur'an; Qur'an by Hadith(Sunnah) and Tafseer by the Judgement of Companions etc. So Hadith is very, very relevant in the interpretation of the Qur'an.

Furthermore when Umar bn Kattab said the Rajm aya has been erased he also said it is still a judgement and the Holy Prophet practised it. He did not say it is not to be practiced.

I said this before on a similar topic but I will again UMMITA Please dont allow sentiment rule your thought especially on religious issues. Islamic Law is not a jocking matter it can make nonsense of your faith. Please SEEK MORE KNOWLEDGE.

The major problem with most of the non-muslim contributors is that they refuse to understand why we are agitating for Shari'ah.  

Sorry gotta go. I will continue tomorrow
agari Nakowa Mugu Sai Maishi

Offline Jack_Fulcher

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2003, 08:21:33 PM »
Friends, these posts have been very interesting and I am learning much about a topic (Islam) that I never knew before.  I am looking forward to more intelligent discussion on these issues.

Isn't Amina's case to be brought up again in a few days?  That will be interesting...Jack

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2003, 08:35:13 PM »
Salaam Abu Mujahid.
Like you I have only recently returned as the prodigal daughter. So greetings to new and old friends on the forum and lets try and be civil to each other please as a sign of maturity. That is what repelled me from the forum in the first place.

What I am going to say is just a thought that I had sometime back concerning the issue of adultery and abrogation of stoning.
This is what i thought.  
Stoning is still enforceable. But before a person can be brought to book he has to be indicted by four witnesses who are upright principled citizens of the community; whose word cannot, can never be doubted. This of course is impossible in this day and age. No such  ppl exist and if they did, they dont want to be found.
The second way to be brought to book is by confession. I bet you, Amina Lawal could not have just breezed into court and confessed adultery out of penance for what she did, if she did do it. There must have been circumstances that led her to  confess and which, had she forseen the consequences, would in all likelihood never have ventured to make a confession.
There is a hadeeth of the Prophet Salaam in which a man confessed to adultery and he was stoned to death. As he was dying or after his death, some people began to cast aspersions on his name and the Prophet Salaam told them that the man was in Paradise because of his penance. In otherwords his was the supreme act of penitence which is rewarded with Al Jannah.
Therefore it goes without saying that those who commit zina and are stoned can expect forgiveness and the Grace of Allah.
However it is a difficult action to follow voluntarily. In all of th Prophet Salaam's time, he only passed a handful of this sentence of rajm.
The point is if adultery is punishable only by death, then if a person does not confess or is not caught, then what will his fate be in the hereafter?  Do you think he is immediately eligible to enter paradise on the day of resurrection? Is he eligible for paradise at all since he has not undergone the proper punishment that will absolve him of the sin? I ask this because it is implicitly assumed that if a person is lashed for fornication, he has, as it were, paid for the crime in human terms and the next thing on the agenda is to ask Allah SWT's forgiveness for the sin, in order to be completely absolved.  

I have read that in the case of the man who confessed and tried to run away when he was being stoned, the Prophet Salaam, upon hearing that he was stoned anyway despite the fact that he tried to run away commented that he should have been allowed to escape because perhaps Allah will forgive him for the sin. So it is also possible to get divine forgiveness for adultery without  being stoned to death. (I am not sure if it was the same man whose name ppl began to denigrate and of whom the prophet said was in paradise)

In this era that we are living in, fornication and adultery probably constitute the  most widespread sin that mankind indulges in. It is not limited to a certain race or followers of a particular creed. A hefty percentage of muslims practice adultery and fornication. It is probably true to say that all over the world the ppl who indulge in adultery and fornication outnumber those who do not. In the case of Muslims especially those who are married, does it mean that they are beyond the pale (i.e. cannot obtain paradise)because a very miniscule number is punished by rajm? So where lies the fate of the majority since they are not stoned? Or is it fair to say that if stoning was the norm practiced in Islamic countries then the number of  muslim adulterers will have been minimal? Yet in Saudi Arabia where they have stringent Islamic penal codes, promiscuity is still a problem, judging from reports that are brought back from pilgrims.

Do you not think that since a sizeable number of these adulterers will surely repent before the end of their lives and lead clean decent lives, they stand a good chance of being forgiven by God?  Furthermore no one is the wiser because they were clandestine about it and never confessed and therefore only God knew about their indiscretions. A nation is never cursed by God until it openly parades its shameful acts or gives them a garment of public morality where none exists.
So if there is a possibility of being forgiven by Allah then surely there is no need to stone? Especially as the Prophet Salaam himself had no particular liking for stoning and always used to look away from a first confession and only acted upon the third?
And if those multitude of promiscuous individuals can have no hope of the grace of God for the absolution of their sins save through rajm then the Prophet's Ummah that will enter paradise will indeed be miniscule (which we know in sha Allah will not be the case), and it will not only be the majority of women who will end up in hell, the majority of men will also find themselves at hell's gate, because it takes two to tango.
Like I said this is just a thought,
so let me brace myself for some lampooning.  ;D

Offline Eskimo

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2003, 08:38:17 PM »
AbuMujahid,
I am not saying all Hadith are wrong...nor am I doubting the sincerety of Bukhari and co...
This little discussion has forced to read alot and conduct researches...so I benefitted alot...the result is that...I corrected some of my wrong understanding on some issues...I ve not been writing recently cos of that...
Bissalam.
color=blue]NOBODY is PERFECT and I am NOBODY.[/color]

Anonymous

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2003, 08:43:49 PM »
so let me brace myself for some lamthingying.    ;D
huh???
Let me brace my self for some lam  poo   ning   ;)

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2003, 02:13:11 AM »
Pleased to meet Ummulhuda. A thoughtful, well considered and charitable contribution to the debate. Kanoonline has to be congratulated for allowing this discussion to flourish. It has caused many people to think very hard and examine some aspects that they had never deeply thought about before.
As Waziri in his recent post has pointed out I was with you in Kano for many years. I met much kindness and friendship and admired greatly the civility and the dignity that is inherent in the Hausa peoples. Waziri dwelt at length on the reasons he believes are responsible for the failings in Nigeria's progress at the moment. It is a pity that more Nigerians are not inclined to do as he does though I have commented before on the number of people contributing to this forum who very strongly want to see a better Nigeria. Central to Nigeria's problems are tribalism and mistrust between people of different religions. To a considerable extent both these problems are the result of European interference that made this vast part of West Africa containing many tribes and different traditions, religious and otherwise, into one country. It has been difficult to foster a One Nigeria sentiment in the midst of mistrust between all the different peoples in the federation and this has held progress back. When the peoples of Nigeria agree to respect all their different neighbours and agree to allow any person in any part of Nigeria to practice their own religion (or none) without interference a great step forward will have been taken. A nation can then be built.  In my time in Nigeria I met a number of Nigerians who disliked the whites. This did not surprise me. There were reasons for this. Nor did it affect the way I think about Nigeria or how I went about my work at Kano Ministry of Education. I met many more Nigerians who got on perfectly well with foreigners and who were prepared to judge everybody by their character. What surprised me however was the number of Nigerians who disliked Nigerians of other tribes or other religions more than they disliked the whites. This weakens the prospect of progress.
I met many highly intelligent, hard-working and ambitious people in Nigeria. I remember with great affection many of the fine young ladies I taught at the WTC in Kano. The building blocks for the nation are there. What Nigeria seems to lack is a sense of communality - the understanding that lifting the poor out of poverty is a duty, that providing good education, good health services, good transport infrastrucure, safe environment can only be done by joint action of everybody. The present culture of everybody trying to grab as much for themselves and their own family only stops this happening. In the West we did not reach where we are without a struggle and many brave people fighting over centuries to bring the "big men" down to size and give us democracy. Nigeria needs some brave men to step forward and create the change that is needed - honest men to banish corruption and hypocrisy. Can you see any emerging leaders with these qualities?

Offline al_hamza

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Re: Death Penalty In Islam: A Case for Adultery
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2003, 01:28:12 PM »
                       "When the peoples of Nigeria agree to respect all their different neighbours and agree to allow any person in any part of Nigeria to practice their own religion (or none) without interference a great step forward will have been taken. A nation can then be built"

PERFECT! DAVE! THATS LIKE A SCOTSMAN! ALRIGHT! AT-LAST YOUR TALKING SENSE!
ABILUNAH? SABILUNAH? AL-JIHAD! AL-JIHAD!

 


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